[We are] not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Friday, January 18, 2008

When it comes to “Receiving Christ” is there a difference between Ignorance and Denial?

by Rose

With all the discussions over the Refined Free Grace Movement, the Crossless Gospel (hate that term) or the Consistent Free Grace view or whatever other label one might attach to the particulars of one area of soteriology of my blog mates, Antonio and Matthew, I have had two scenarios battling in my head.

Scenario #1
Let’s talk about Jeff. Jeff is a guy that has heard the doctrines of Christianity here and there all his life. He doesn’t believe any of it. He thinks that the Bible is a fairy tale. He does not believe in miracles. One day, his brother is tragically killed. He begins to fear death and the hereafter in the weeks to follow. He knows a Christian at work named Leonard. He asks Leonard to tell him how to avoid hell. Leonard shares the gospel with Jeff. He tells him the whole entire story, using the gospel of John as an outline. Leonard tells Jeff about the eternality of Christ. He tells him about Christ’s miracles and His exchanges with people. He tells him about the death and resurrection and that He was seen by over 500 witnesses. Jeff, in his mind, is saying, “This is all that fundamentalist stuff.” However, something about the conversations that Jesus had with individuals in the Bible catches Jeff's ear. In an irrational turn-of-mind (which I honestly think is impossible) he believes that he can trust Christ with his eternal welfare… even though he hates all this “fundamentalist stuff” (which is actually great truth about Christ – His deity, His death for sin, and His resurrection.) Leonard doesn’t know that Jeff is dismissing all the great truths about Christ, but he sees Jeff’s interest in the promise of Christ to these souls in the Gospel of John. Leonard asks Jeff if He trusts Christ for that promise. Jeff says “yes” and in an unreasonable way, he does, even though he rejects the other great truths about Christ, secretly, in his mind. Leonard says, “Welcome to the family” …and the encounter ends. In my understanding, Jeff is not “receiving” Christ. I don’t know that it is Leonard’s fault… because Jeff did not reveal all that was in his mind at the time. Jeff has clearly closed his throat to Christ, even though he liked Christ’s promise in a somewhat bizarre and irrational way. The over-riding truth here is that Jeff has rejected the Person of Christ from who comes that great promise. How can that be saving faith?

HOWEVER…

Scenario #2
A person named Tio, in a far-off land, is given the gospel of John and his friend, who had gotten it from a missionary, just tells him, “They say that this man Jesus can save us from punishment of the Great One after we die.” So Tio begins to read about the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among people. He gets it – this man Jesus... was the Great One. He reads of the miracles that Jesus did. He begins to get a wonderful revelation in his mind that this Jesus is the answer to his – and all others’ - eternal needs. He reads of how Jesus interacted with the Samaritan woman. He is overcome with enthusiasm about receiving this Person in the same way as she did. He calls out to Jesus and places his faith in Him. He believes and trusts the God-man. The next day, officials from his country come in and confiscate the Gospel of John. He has no way of reading the rest of it and now has no knowledge of the cross and resurrection. If Tio heard about the cross and resurrection, he would of course receive it as it is – truth about his Savior. In my mind, I cannot bring myself to say that Tio is not saved eternally. He has trusted and received Christ. His knowledge is limited, but he has not rejected any great truth about his Savior and he placed his faith in Christ for the long haul. He has received all that he heard of Christ and has entrusted himself to Him eternally.

Jeff denies. Tio is ignorant. To me, there is a huge difference. I believe that Christ gives the right to become “children of God to as many as believe on His name.” Believing on His name and receiving great truths about Him as they come… are one and the same. Rejecting great truths about who Jesus has so far proven Himself to be... and what He has done... is antithetical to "receiving Him."

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69 Comments:

  • I still can't see how Jeff would ever trust Christ for anything, but some say this is a scenario that could happen. I like to refer to this as a "mimimalistic theory of salvation with no corresponding reality."

    Also - I am not stating that one must accept all great truths about who Christ will yet be revealed as, eschatologically - e.g. "the King of Israel."

    By Blogger Rose~, at Friday, January 18, 2008 8:12:00 AM  

  • Hi Rose
    Believing on His name and receiving great truths about Him as they come… are one and the same. Rejecting great truths about who Jesus has so far proven Himself to be... and what He has done... is antithetical to "receiving Him."

    Rose your statement sounds like a person has to keep drinking truth as it becomes known to them or they never drank in the first place. I hope we all realize that a born again person still can be lead astray into false teaching.

    take it freely
    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Friday, January 18, 2008 10:13:00 AM  

  • Alvin,
    I am talking about what is taking place at the conversion experience/time.

    I hope we all realize that a born again person still can be lead astray into false teaching.


    Of course they can. How soon after - or would you say that even during conversion - can this (or is it likely) to happen?
    :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at Friday, January 18, 2008 11:05:00 AM  

  • Hi Rose

    I think a person in a Lordship salvation church can be saved. Because it's possible to simply take Jesus at His promise and be saved even though they are hearing allot of false teaching.

    one drink
    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Friday, January 18, 2008 11:50:00 AM  

  • I would say the first scenario is less likely. The more that Jeff rejects the truth that is revealed to him, the more danger he is in of hardening his heart.

    But that does not mean it is impossible. Don't forget that there is a supernatural element in conversion. The Holy Spirit may lead a person to some truths before others.

    I find it difficult to see a real difference between rejecting a truth and being ignorant of it.

    Both are passive results of being persuaded. The only difference is the willingness of the person to consider the evidence. Jeff would seem to have shown a willingness to consider the evidence for the claims of Christ.

    God Bless

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Friday, January 18, 2008 11:52:00 AM  

  • Alvin, here in the UK it is pretty much a choice between either going to a Lordship Salvation church or not going to church at all.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Friday, January 18, 2008 12:06:00 PM  

  • Hi Rose

    Let’s say Jeff grew up in a home where his dad was a Lordship pastor. And he had heard time and again he needed to realize he was a sinner and Christ had died for his sins. And that he needed to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior and take up his cross and follow Him.
    But then one day Jeff loses his brother in a car wreak, so life and death become more real to him. So a friend of his named Leonard starts talking to him about Jesus death and resurrection and that Jesus was God. But Jeff thinks, this is what I’ve had pounded into my head for years. But then Leonard starts telling Jeff about the women at the well. This catches Jeff’s attention because Jesus is offering a gift that can be taken freely. This isn’t like anything Jeff has ever heard before but just the opposite. Jeff thinks it’s really a gift after all. Leonard asks Jeff do you believe Jesus promise? Jeff say’s yes I do! This is great news for Jeff he knows he has eternal life! All these other things Jeff is now going to have to sort through, but now he has the help of the Holy Spirit and a friend that knows the truth which is a great start!
    Food for thought!

    Take it freely
    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Friday, January 18, 2008 1:08:00 PM  

  • Good post Rose! Here's where I see the difference:

    "Leonard asks Jeff if He trusts Christ for that promise."

    I don't see where we are asked to trust in Christ for a promise but to believe (trust) that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Jeff is not saved.

    "He gets it – this man Jesus... was the Great One."

    Tio places his trust, believes in, the one true God. Tio has saving faith.

    Someone may come from a Mormon background and understand Jesus to be a God. They may believe that they have eternal life through a God, Jesus, who is THE savior. The one and only guarantor of eternal life. They may even believe all the other truths about Him as recorded in the Bible yet miss the one that is essential - Jesus IS God. I would say this person is not saved. Jesus IS God, the God, the one and only God and they do not know Him. Here O' gentiles - God is one! The Savior, once hidden in the God of Israel, is now fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. To deny His deity is to remain in unbelief.

    By Blogger Jon Lee, at Friday, January 18, 2008 2:09:00 PM  

  • Rose,

    To answer your question raised in this post, YES! This is a concern of mine that I believe may cause some here to become uncomfortable, but be that as it may, I have a real problem with "Refined Free Grace" as I understand it. My problem is that we are beginning, I fear, to go to the point of not really believing in the Christ of Scripture. Yes, we can go too far into "checklists" without actually trusting Christ Himself possibly, but I don't believe this is as likely as going too far the other way & not really believing in the Biblical Christ but a cultic one, if that makes sense. Doctrine, & I refer to Bible doctrine, especially concerning Who the genuine Biblical Christ is, is extrememly important, IMHO, not only for initial salvation, but progressive sanctification as well. Why not know as much as possible about the Biblical Christ right off the bat? This greatly concerns me. I know myself too well. I am way too easily led in the wrong direction, & to know all I can about my wonderful Savior is important to start me off right & keep me right. Also, great post, bro. Jon Lee!
    Thank you Rose for raising this extremely important issue.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Friday, January 18, 2008 5:46:00 PM  

  • "I would say the first scenario is less likely. The more that Jeff rejects the truth that is revealed to him, the more danger he is in of hardening his heart.

    But that does not mean it is impossible. Don't forget that there is a supernatural element in conversion. The Holy Spirit may lead a person to some truths before others."


    Matthew, AMEN! IMO, this is the crux of the entire matter.

    Salvation is a supernatural act of God.

    By Blogger Gayla, at Saturday, January 19, 2008 1:24:00 PM  

  • Hi Rose,

    In either scenario, do these men come to any understanding of where they stand in relation to their rebellion as sinners before God? That (to me) would help a fair bit in our discernment.

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:01:00 AM  

  • Colin, knowing where we stand in relation to sin is irrelevant as regards our justification.

    Justification is about what Christ has done for us, not about what we are.

    God Bless

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Monday, January 21, 2008 12:05:00 AM  

  • Hi Matthew,

    Surely the fact that God "justifieth the ungodly" (Romans 5:6) has something to do with it?

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Monday, January 21, 2008 12:30:00 AM  

  • Oops! Wrong reference. It should, of course, be Romans 4:5. Romans 5:6 speaks of Christ dying for the ungodly.

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Monday, January 21, 2008 12:43:00 AM  

  • Colin, why do you think those who are justified need to be conscious of their ungodliness?

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Monday, January 21, 2008 5:06:00 AM  

  • Hi Matthew,

    Justification is by faith (Romans 5:1) which presupposes being applied for - much in the same line as Luke 5:32 where it is said that they that are well do not need a physician, but those who are sick. The Pharisee praying in the temple in Luke 18 did not see himself as ungodly and therefore did not apply to God for his justification, but effectively felt that he was able to prive it from his own storehouse of supposed virtues. On the other hand, the poor publican prceived his ungodliness, and souhgt the mercy ofGod and went home justified i.e. declared righteous in the sight of God.

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Monday, January 21, 2008 5:30:00 AM  

  • Sorry (again) for the various typos

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Monday, January 21, 2008 5:31:00 AM  

  • Colin, I do not think justification in the Pauline sense is meant in that particular passage.

    We do not see anything clearly resembling the doctrine of justication in Luke, so if we try to read it into that passage, we end up doing eisegesis.

    I do not believe that saving faith is seeking mercy from God.

    Roman Catholics often seek mercy from God. They have not found it and if they are truly pious, they will admit that they are uncertain of having received mercy.

    I would rather define the essence of saving faith as trust in Jesus for eternal life.

    A person is more likely to exercise this faith if she has come to see her ungodliness, I will admit.

    However, knowledge of one's ungodliness is not in itself a condition of receiving eternal life and I can think of situations in which a person might come to see the gift of eternal life without a realisation of her sinfulness.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Monday, January 21, 2008 5:45:00 AM  

  • We do not see anything clearly resembling the doctrine of justication in Luke, so if we try to read it into that passage, we end up doing eisegesis.

    On the contrary, Matthew, Luke gives us our definition of justification i.e. in 7:29 where the people are said to have justified God. Obviously this does not mean that they made God righteous (as Rome so defines justification) but rather that they declared God to be righteous.

    The link between mercy and justification is clearly established in the parable alluded to above. If someone will not take the sinner's place, then they cannot expect salvation in any of its forms, including justification.

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Monday, January 21, 2008 6:02:00 AM  

  • Alvin,
    I don't really know how to respond.
    I am a little confused by what you said in your Friday 11:50 comment - how it relates to the thing we were talking about. :~)
    Maybe you can clear that up for me?

    Matthew,
    I am glad you think the first scenario is less likely.

    I am a bit surprised that you don't see a difference between rejecting a truth and being ignorant of it. Don't you agree that the frame of mind is quite diffeent between the two?

    For example, a love child. A child is conceived during a college fling and the father never knows that such child existed. Has he rejected this child? No. However, if the mother calls him and tells him about the child on said child's fifth birthday and the father decides he wants nothing to do with it, then this is rejection. I see a huge difference between denying and being ignorant, although I recognize that my example has some holes in its correspondence to the subject at hand.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, January 21, 2008 6:38:00 AM  

  • Jon,
    Thanks for your comment. I do see that we are asked to trust Christ for His eternal protection of us. I don't share your conviction that those who simply recognize that He is God are saved. What I have thought about this all along, though, is that no person will "receive eternal life" from someone that they do not understand to be the Eternal One. I think that is just so simple, but others don't. Oh well.

    To deny His deity is to remain in unbelief.

    I agree with this statement. We cannot deny who He is and then somehow grasp hold of that thing which He can offer because of Who He is. That don't make sense. :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, January 21, 2008 6:44:00 AM  

  • Hi David,
    You and I see it similarly. Thank you for your comment. I think Who Christ is is the EMPHASIS of evangelism. To tell of that which He offers without the background of WHO HE IS just doesn't make any sense to me. At the same time, I have not been convinced that our brothers here are "preaching a false gospel" as they have been accused of. I wish those who are sounding alarms about this blog would go and read Matthew's sermons on his blog and see what he preaches.

    I think a lot of this is about theory.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, January 21, 2008 6:50:00 AM  

  • Gayla,
    Hi. I fond your comment so interesting. So as a gal persuaded of the Doctrines of Grace then you would say that God could very well have regenerated Jeff and he will soon receive the whole gamut of faith? Am I reading you right? Thanks for visiting. :~)

    Hello Colin,
    I implied that Tio was aware of his sin because he is promted to read the gospel of John when his friend says "They say that this man Jesus can save us from punishment of the Great One after we die." That was what he was in fear of being punished for.
    :~)
    Interesting thoughts you and Matthew are sharing back and forth.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, January 21, 2008 6:54:00 AM  

  • Interesting thoughts you and Matthew are sharing back and forth.

    Hi Rose,
    Do you agree with Matthew when he says that "I do not believe that saving faith is seeking mercy from God"? I would qualify it and say that "saving faith is seeking saving mercy from God alone through faith in the merits of Christ's work alone." If I read Matthew alright, he sees no need for your clause (which I obviously missed) re: Tio being under wrath (implying sin). Do you run with Matthew on this one?

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Monday, January 21, 2008 7:01:00 AM  

  • Colin,
    I would say that Matthew is speaking in terms of the positive only. I think that I see it more nagatively. Mercy is the negative side of the eternal life coin. Why do we need mercy? Because we are sinners. Why do we need life if we do not think we are in danger of death? There is always a flip side to the positive and I think people won't "get it" if they don't get the flip side. That is my understanding.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, January 21, 2008 7:59:00 AM  

  • Rose, with that analogy I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

    Rejecting a fact and rejecting a child are rather different.

    A closer analogy would be:

    Two men father a child.

    The one never finds out that the child is his. He remains ignorant.

    The other man is phoned by the child's mother and told about the child.

    However, he has heard from people who know the mother that she is a crafty woman. He comes to the conlusion that the woman is lying about this child and he hangs up the phone.

    Unlike the other man, this guy has rejected the fact of the child's existence. However, he did so on the basis of information that he believed was reliable.

    Compare this with two people who do not believe the doctrine of our Lord's deity:

    The one was ignorant of it because she did not have the Bible in her own language.

    The other was aware of the doctrine but rejected it because the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society gave her persuasive arguments that Jesus is not God.

    The second person can certainly be blamed for not studying the Bible hard enough for herself, however, she is no less sincere than the other person.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Monday, January 21, 2008 8:08:00 AM  

  • I would say that Matthew is speaking in terms of the positive only.

    Rose, I get the distinct impression that Matthew is ruling out the flip side altogether. There is nothing in his comments to suggest otherwise.

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Monday, January 21, 2008 8:37:00 AM  

  • "Gayla,
    Hi. I fond your comment so interesting. So as a gal persuaded of the Doctrines of Grace then you would say that God could very well have regenerated Jeff and he will soon receive the whole gamut of faith? Am I reading you right? Thanks for visiting."


    Hi Rose,

    I haven't popped by in a few days so I just saw this.

    My point in agreeing with what Matthew said is that I think we sometimes forget that salvation is a supernatural act of God, and apart from His divine intervention into our lives, we won't be saved.

    The notion of "being persuaded" has never set so well with me. And maybe it's b/c I see persuasion as more of an intellectual exersice, rather than a spiritual one. I don't believe people come to faith because they've somehow been convinced to believe something (with their mind). It is more involved than that; God has to change a heart. The supernatural again.

    People can and do experience spiritual things while not saved. But that doesn't mean that those (spiritual) events weren't part of God's ultimate plan for their salvation. Perhaps that could be the case with our Jeff guy. Who knows? But the more a person continues to harden his already hardened heart, the more danger he is in.

    Hope this makes sense, b/c I feel like my thoughts are a bit disjointed this evening!

    By Blogger Gayla, at Monday, January 21, 2008 5:44:00 PM  

  • Rose,

    Yes I believe we do too. You have hit on something that I firmly believe, & that is that Who Jesus is, the Biblical Jesus is essential in Biblical evangelism. Also, His work, which cannot be separated from Who He is, IMHO, is essential. No, I don't accuse our brethren of preaching a false Gospel either, just to me, a bare bones one, which can lead to confusion, as it already has for me. When it can be said that the Mormon "Jesus" & the Biblical One can be the same, I believe it is confusing especially to ungrounded believers, at best. I'd rather know more about the genuine Savior than less about Him, since the Spirit takes the truth about Him & applies it to our hearts.
    Gayla, I also agree that salvation is a spiritual work of God, & that without His intervention no one will be saved. Thankfully He has already intervened & lifted the Lord Jesus up & is drawing all to Him. Now we can lift Him up in evangelism, just as He was lifted up on the cross, allowing the Spirit to draw lost sinners who've been awakened to their need, to Him. Y'all are a blessing to me.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Monday, January 21, 2008 6:11:00 PM  

  • That is well said David and in part Rose, but let us remember that it is the accusser that hates the finished work of the cross and not the other way around. I do not apologize for attacking the thoughts that are occuring on this blog and the danger that is being opened up here. I think Kev has done a good job in defense of the truth.

    David? I was tremendously blessed by your devotional during prayertime today and your mentioning that wonderful testimony of Spurgeon that is loved by many. Also in your use of the paralyzed man being let down by his friends in the roof I was greatly encouraged in the truth. In fact one translation renders it, "Take heart...your sins are forgiven"

    Praise God that there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother, and He is a faithful friend.

    By Blogger Only Look, at Monday, January 21, 2008 6:41:00 PM  

  • Thanks bro. Brian for the encouragement. Without my wonderful Savior, I am nothing. Glad you're listening to BBN!

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Monday, January 21, 2008 7:14:00 PM  

  • Hi Rose
    All I did was change your scenario about Jeff a little to more show the Lordship climate in the world. Most are being given some shade of Lordship Salvation that cannot save anyone. And with Jeff rejecting this message he is also rejecting allot of truth. But then tragedy strikes and he finally receives the simple truth of the free gift and accepts it, then has to sort through the rest of the truths he had rejected in the past, and was rejecting at the time thinking it was that same old message of giving up everything for a gift. He finally had heard the real good news and was persuaded by it.

    one drink
    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:49:00 AM  

  • Hi Rose
    I looked over your two scenarios again and the language you use in the two different cases I believe is very telling. You have Jeff “believes that he can trust Christ with his eternal welfare.” You seem to put it in a way that suggest he hasn’t yet but he believes that he can.
    In this scenario with Jeff if you would have been clear that he had believed Jesus promise of eternal life, I would say that it would be impossible for him not to be saved. Because Jesus always keeps His promise (John 6:47).

    Then in your second scenario with Tio you seem to suggest a two step belief.
    “He calls out to Jesus AND places his faith in Him”

    “He believes AND trusts”

    “He has trusted AND received Christ”


    Rose it almost sounds to me like you don’t believe that “believing is enough but it has to have something extra to make it real?
    I don’t think your clear in either scenario on what they are believing in Jesus for. The gift is eternal life and Jesus told the women at the well “ If you new the gift of God.” She needed to know what the gift was! Your not clear on either scenario on the gift.

    just some thought's
    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:46:00 PM  

  • Good Morning Rose

    That’s what’s so good about these discussions and the refined free grace message. It makes sure we are accurate on our presentation of the gospel. That we don’t give a two step approach or suggest that there is more condition’s then simply believing Jesus promise. Jesus told the women at the well “IF YOU KNEW THE GIFT OF GOD” she needed to KNOW what the gift of God was before she could believe in Him for that gift. And Jesus clearly told her that the water that He offered, the one who drank of it would NEVER thirst. People will only have assurance if they are clear on what Jesus is offering “eternal life.” They MUST know the gift of God.

    One drink
    alvin

    Not: We can't read peoples minds like you did in Jeff's scenario. If we are clear in our presentation of the gospel and the person tells us they believe and know they have eternal life we should accept that. I heard Zane say that there has only been a couple times in his many years of giving the gospel to a person that he questioned their response. I believe he said the one was just saying what he thought he wanted to hear. And Zane admitted there are those cases when someone will tell you something just because that's what they think you want to hear.

    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:43:00 AM  

  • Hey Alvin,
    I read your thoughts the last comment before this one and I was so busy this morning, I forgot about coming and chatting with ya. I was working on work and on my own blog.

    So - interesting observations about my wording.

    “He calls out to Jesus AND places his faith in Him”

    “He believes AND trusts”

    “He has trusted AND received Christ”


    Two steps, huh?

    Let me ask you something, Alvin...

    Do you think there is a difference between belief and trust when it comes to this subject matter? Between receiving Christ and believing Him? Between "calling out to Jesus" and "receiving Him"?

    Thanks! :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:19:00 AM  

  • I totally agree, Alvin. We can't read people's minds. Good point.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:20:00 AM  

  • Hi Rose

    I think there is a difference in your mind because of the way you articulated the two scenarios. Of course I'm not reading your mind, I dont have that gift ha! ha! But you said “I have had two scenarios battling in my head.” And the way you articulated Jeff’s scenario because you had already made up your mind he was lost before you put it in print you insinuated there was but one step he had made which was believing but he had not received. Where as in Tio you had already decided he was saved so you articulated him as not ONLY believing BUT receiving as if they were two different things. And you go so far as to say “His knowledge is limited, but he has not rejected any great truth about his Savior AND he placed his faith in Christ FOR THE LONG HAUL.” This insinuates that since it was a faith for the "LONG HAUL" that it was a "TRUE" faith.
    With the scenario I gave about Jeff I believe I showed that a person could be rejecting truth because he thought it was the same that he had been pounded into his head from his childhood “Lordship Salvation” but for the first time he was now hearing the free gospel and believed it. He was convinced by the story of the women at the well that the gift was a forever gift and that it was a free gift, so he had simply believed Jesus words and was born again. Without having ALL his facts clear about Jesus. He was believing the Jesus who was saying in the scriptures “If you new the gift of God and who it is who says to you give Me a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” ( John 4:10) Jeff new the gift of God, that it was A FOREVER GIFT that he would NEVER THIRST AGAIN. And Jeff was believing the One in that passage that was making that promise!
    Concerning the difference between “believe and receive” there is no difference at the moment of new birth. If you believed Jesus promise then you have received everlasting life.

    One drink
    Alvin, hey that kinda makes me sound like a Indian ha! Ha!

    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:27:00 PM  

  • Alvin,
    That's funny! When I said "for the long haul" I was referring to "eternally" - haha - I just got tired of using the same words over and over.

    I don't think there is a difference between trust and faith and receiving Christ. I do think that believing Him is receiving Him and vice versa (John 1) because this is how we become the children of God. If one is not "receiving Christ" then I don't think they are "believing Him" either. Capiche?

    I do think there is a difference between someone who is not receptive toward Chrst and one who is. Of course this effected the way I wrote my scenarios. I don't think someone who rejects truth about Christ at the time of the testimony of the gospel is going to be receiving salvation from him either. I am not talking about this or that inconsequential doctrine, Alvin, but about WHO this is and what HE has done in regards to this salvation we are discussing. How can that be something that someone would turn from at the very moment they want to trust the Lord? They don't believe him, but they believe Him for life? It just doesn't make sense to me, brother... and I am no Lordshipper or checklist evangelist.

    I do appreciate your enthusiasm, though, Alvin.

    God bless you.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 2:18:00 PM  

  • Hi Rose
    Had to get my rollerblading in for the day!
    But I'm back now!
    Rose you said:
    That's funny! When I said "for the long haul" I was referring to "eternally" - haha - I just got tired of using the same words over and over.

    Rose what I thought was a little strange is that you NEVER used the words "eternal life" ONCE! I would think that you would want to be accurate on your presentations and make clear what the gift was that Jesus was offering Jeff and Tio so Satan would have less chance of stealing the seed away before they believed. Jesus wants Jeff to be born again and to escape Satan's lies, just like the women at the well had many things to think about. Her whole religion was false, but right then she needed that water so she would never thirst again. After that Jeff and the women at the well could sort through the rest.

    one drink alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 3:09:00 PM  

  • OK ALvin,
    point taken. Insert the words eternal life and then respond. Thanks.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 3:41:00 PM  

  • Alvin,
    I used the word "eternal" twice and the word "eternally" once. That is why I tried to get a little creative and say "for the long haul." Sue me. ;~)

    Besides, I wasn't giving a gospel presentation, I was talking about two SCENARIOS. :~)

    Are you good at rollerblading?

    By Blogger Rose~, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:20:00 PM  

  • Hi Rose

    I'm the rollerblade king!!! Ha! Ha! Not really I fall ever once in awhile. But I got these new padded underwear, so I kinda bounce when I hit! I think they are soccor shorts, any way they make me look like Arnold from the waist down and I look like Popeye from the waist up. Boy thats not a very good word picture uh? Anyway I'll have to get back with you later,,,have a good night!

    one drink alvin

    P.S. do you got very much money?

    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:49:00 PM  

  • Hi Rose

    In an irrational turn-of-mind (which I honestly think is impossible) he believes that he can trust Christ FOR ETERNAL LIFE.
    Leonard doesn’t know that Jeff is dismissing all the great truths about Christ, but he sees Jeff’s interest in the promise of Christ to these souls in the Gospel of John. Leonard asks Jeff if He trusts Christ for the promise OF ETERNAL LIFE. Jeff says “yes” I BELIEVE IN JESUS FOR ETERNAL LIFE.

    Question is Jeff saved?
    Jesus said: Most assuredly I tell you he who believes in Me has eternal life. John 6:47


    A person named Tio, in a far-off land, is given the gospel of John and his friend, who had gotten it from a missionary, just tells him, “They say that this man Jesus can save us from punishment of the Great One after we die.” So Tio begins to read about the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among people. He gets it – this man Jesus... was the Great One.

    You find out later that Tio also believes that "The Great One" is also the "sun god" is he saved?

    food for thought!




    One drink
    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:10:00 PM  

  • Alvin,
    P.S. do you got very much money?

    Why you ask?
    Hint: my husband, like you, drives a government vehicle with the steering wheel and gas pedal on the wrong side, like a Londoneer. :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:06:00 AM  

  • Honestly Alvin,
    You keep presenting this idea that someone can believe in Jesus for eternal life while not beleiving in Him. It just doesn't work!

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:07:00 AM  

  • Yes, one drink.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:08:00 AM  

  • Hi Rose
    I was just joking about the money thing, you said "sue me" up above:)
    Anyway, I believe I proved that a person can be rejecting truth but then see the light. There is alot of truth being taught by the Lordshipers.
    Also just as Zane has pointed out with John 4:10 that this rendering can be given from the original text.
    "If you [now] knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink', you would [already]have asked Him, and He would [already] have given you living water.
    Rose it's all about giving and receiving a gift. Jesus would have already given it to her if she would have had the information. All she needed to know was what the gift was and that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ) the One sent from God to give eternal life. And remember the women at the well had a false religion passed down to her from her ancesters who worshiped on that mountian. I'm sure she had many misconceptions about God. But Jesus offered the gift in a form she could not refuse "living water" one drink and she would never thirst again.
    I guess my sense of humor is lacking, I'll try to be more serious in the future :)

    one drink
    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:18:00 AM  

  • Alvin,
    Your sense of humor is fine!

    Actually, I re-thought that. I should have said "Arrest me." teehee

    Now the reference you mention astounds me. Jesus said "If you knew the gift of God and WHO IT IS who says to you...."

    It seems like we want to cancel out the "WHO IT IS" part of that verse and just focus on the gift that He gives. Why do you think He said if "you knew WHO IT IS..."
    What does that mean when he says "If you knew who it is..."?

    Thanks, Alvin! ;~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:23:00 AM  

  • If one believes that Jesus is the one true God would he not give the gift?

    John 4:10
    Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

    If she knew the gift of God, she would have asked Him for it - If she knew who (God) it is who says to her - He would have given her His gift, living water. The emphasis to me is placed directly on His deity. Upon belief that He is the one true God, He gives...

    One drink given to those who believe He is God.

    Your exposition requires a checklist :).

    1. She must know the gift
    2. She must ask for the gift
    3. She must receive the gift

    I suppose mine does too -

    1. Believe in the one true God

    In Christ,

    JL

    By Blogger Jon Lee, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:30:00 AM  

  • Hi Rose

    Wold you say that "Saul of Tarsus" was activly rejecting truth?

    But Jesus still gave him light!

    one drink alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:33:00 AM  

  • Alvin,
    No, upon Saul's conversion, he was not rejecting Christ. Imagine him saying, "OK, I believe now that Jesus gives eternal life, but I still think he was blasphemous for making himself equal with God."

    :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:42:00 AM  

  • By saying that she had to know He was God before He would give her the living water is to say she needed to know more then all of Jesus disciples. The text shows that she simply believed He was the Messiah (the Christ). Anymore and your simply speculating 

    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:43:00 AM  

  • OK, Alvin.
    What about Paul? Could you imagine him saying something so absurd?

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:52:00 AM  

  • Anyone that is believing Jesus for the gift of eternal life is receiving saving truth. To say that the person has to have all their misconception corrected before they can receive saving truth is false.
    Remember the person is in the dark until the light comes on :) Once the light comes on I’m sure that he sees a lot clearer on his misconceptions :)


    One drink alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:53:00 AM  

  • Hi Jon

    That was Jesus checklist not mine!

    In simple form it would look like this:
    Jesus speaking: Most assuredly I tell you he who (1)believe in (2)Me has (3)everlasting life. John 6:47

    asking = believe
    gift = everlasting life
    Me = Messiah (the Christ)

    Me could simply mean the Messiah, Gods Christ! Believing in Jesus as the "Son of Man" gives no one eternal life. They MUST believe in Him as the Christ, the One who gives eternal life (John 20:31; 11:25-27; 1 John 5:1).

    one drink
    alvin :)

    By Blogger alvin, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:05:00 AM  

  • I got to go to the new Sonic resturant that opened yesterday here. They got all them rollerblading to the cars, wish it was summer so I could put the top down. I guess I could wear my woolies :) I love skating to the Newsboys, and my favorite song is "Something Beautiful."

    Got to go :) :) ;)

    one drink from the Christ :)

    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:13:00 AM  

  • Alvin -

    You said:

    "By saying that she had to know He was God before He would give her the living water is to say she needed to know more then all of Jesus disciples."

    I believe most of the disciples were saved at Cana by believing that Jesus is the one true God:


    Joh 2:11 -
    This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.


    "manifested His glory" is speaking of His deity revealed through these signs....and His disciples believed in Him!

    By Blogger Jon Lee, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 12:11:00 PM  

  • Hi Rose/Jon

    Jon you said: I believe most of the disciples were saved at Cana by believing that Jesus is the one true God:

    John 1:49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the KING OF ISRAEL!

    Jon I believe that the evidence is overwhelming that the disciples didn't understand that Jesus was the One True God standing before them.
    Here is a little evidence: They believed in the One God of the Old Testament, and that you could not look upon God and live. They did not understand that the One true God was standing before them and that He had laid aside His glory so they could look upon Him. I believe they believed in Jesus in the Messianic sense, that He was the son of Joseph, the King of Israel from the line of David the Son of God. That God had given Him what to say and when He spoke He was speaking as God representing God.
    This is a Messianic description of Jesus
    John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! Psalm 53
    John 1:34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” This could be understood as the Son of God as coming from the line of David. Because God called David's son His own son, as a son of God. 1 Chronicles 28: 5 And of all my sons (for the LORD has given me many sons) He has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel. 6 Now He said to me, ‘It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father. 7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom forever,

    John 1:37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, “What do you seek?”
    They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), “where are You staying?”
    40 One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ).
    45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
    49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
    If His disciples new He was God why would they marvel that He would talk to a women? John 4:27 And at this point His disciples came, and they marveled that He talked with a woman; yet no one said, “What do You seek?” or, “Why are You talking with her?”
    29 “Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?”

    Jon notice in this following verses Jesus doesn't use scripture to prove His Deity but uses scripture to make the case for using Son of God in His humanity. His argument seems to be if Judges were called god's by God why do you want to stone Me for calling myself the Son of God?
    John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
    33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

    Psalm 82 6 I said, “You are gods,[b]
    And all of you are children of the Most High.
    7 But you shall die like men,
    And fall like one of the princes.”
    Jon why didn't Jesus defend His diety? Instead He proved He had the right to be called the Son of God because of His humanity.

    Why would the disciples be so concerned if they new Jesus was God?
    John 11:8 The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”

    Jon if Martha believed Jesus was God why did she say if you asked God He would give Him as if Jesus Himself wasn't God?
    John 11: 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
    11:39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”
    Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
    40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?”
    If they new God was standing right before them do you think they would have questioned His ability to raise a dead man that had been rotting four days?
    And are you saying that Martha understood the Trinity? If you asked God

    Jesus meets them where they are, else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

    John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
    8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
    9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

    Now we know? Do they?

    John 16:29 His disciples said to Him, “See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! 30 Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God.”
    31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe?

    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
    29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
    Acts 10:38
    8 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.


    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:19:00 PM  

  • Alvin –

    I would say Nathanael’s proclamation was a belief in the deity of Christ – he had come to believe. The prophets foretold of a Messiah that was unmistakably God – not all Jews recognized this – but certainly some did, even if they were in the minority – which I’m not positive they were.

    How do you know they didn’t understand that the one true God was standing before them? This is certainly speculative.

    If used appositionally, as the terms are, what is the common denominator that reduces Christ and Son of God to synonyms? There can be no mistake, the Messiah was to be the anointed OF God – sharing in His deity. The Son of God is OF God – sharing in His deity.

    The disciples marveled at the works of God just as we do today. There is much they didn’t understand, there is much they didn’t trust in Him for – exactly how it is today.

    The John 10:31-36 passage simply points out the irony of the Jewish writings calling those to whom the word of God came – “gods” yet they want to stone the one true God for claiming to be God. Why would they stone Him if His claim were anything less?

    Jesus doesn’t have to defend His deity but I do believe through His questioning He did - by pointing out their error.

    You said “Why would the disciples be so concerned if they new Jesus was God?”

    I would ask why are we so concerned about things if we know Jesus is God?

    You said:
    ”Jon if Martha believed Jesus was God why did she say if you asked God He would give Him as if Jesus Himself wasn't God?”

    She doesn’t profess belief until verse 27. If she had believed earlier – are you saying that God couldn’t reveal the truth of the Trinity to her?

    In John 14 – Philip certainly has a crisis of faith in his zeal to see the Father – Jesus reminds Him of His deity – not that He is the guarantor of eternal life.

    Thomas, as well, is convinced of His deity by His resurrection – because He witnessed it – Jesus goes on to proclaim “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed.”

    Are we blessed because we believe in His deity, having not seen the resurrection or are we blessed because we believe He is the guarantor of eternal life because we have not seen the resurrection. It’s all about His deity – plain and simple.

    In Christ,

    JL

    By Blogger Jon Lee, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 2:22:00 PM  

  • Hi Rose and Jon
    Mark 4
    37 And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. 38 But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?” 39 Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace, be still!” And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. 40 But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?”[a] 41 And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, “Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!”

    Don't you Know? This is the Living God who created the wind and the sea! If you knew Him you would have known!

    Luke 8
    23 But as they sailed He fell asleep. And a windstorm came down on the lake, and they were filling with water, and were in jeopardy. 24 And they came to Him and awoke Him, saying, “Master, Master, we are perishing!” Then He arose and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water. And they ceased, and there was a calm. 25 But He said to them, “Where is your faith?” And they were afraid, and marveled, saying to one another, “Who can this be? For He commands even the winds and water, and they obey Him!”

    Is this such a hard thing for Almighty God? Who did you think He was?


    Matthew 16:22
    Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

    What are you doing Peter, don't you know you are rebuking the One True God Jehovah?

    Luke 5
    7 So they signaled to their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both the boats, so that they began to sink. 8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!” 9 For he and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish which they had taken;

    Peter don't you know that you have been in the presence of the One True God all along?

    Without a doubt they did not know Jesus was the Living God amongst them!

    one drink
    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 2:40:00 PM  

  • Jon,

    The Samaritans believed that Jesus was "the Christ, the Savior of the World". This is an appositional construction.

    Here, it is easily demonstrated that "the Christ" is understood by John to be the "Savior", in other words, the guarantor of eternal life to all who believe in Him for it.

    Why is it in your system that you have disregarded this appositional feature of John's gospel wherein content is implied into the term "the Christ" by its appositional "Savior of the world"?

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:03:00 PM  

  • Antonio said:

    "Why is it in your system that you have disregarded this appositional feature of John's gospel wherein content is implied into the term "the Christ" by its appositional "Savior of the world"?"

    I don't...

    Isa 43:11 -
    I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.

    Only God can be the Savior, only God can be the Christ. Because they are used synonymously - the common denominator in both these terms must be taken into account...GOD.

    In Christ,

    JL

    By Blogger Jon Lee, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 5:32:00 PM  

  • Amen bro. Jon Lee. Less than the God-Man cannot save. The disciples may not have understood this in their time, I cannot say. However, I certainly can say that not one of them, except probably Judas Iscariot, flatly denied that He was God when it became obvious to them, such as Thomas in Jn. 20:24ff.
    Again that is my whole problem with refined free grace as I understand it. Ignorance is one thing, but denial is quite another. I love and appreciate all my brothers & sisters here, but this is where I stand. May the Lord bless you all.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 5:53:00 PM  

  • I stand alongside you brother David. I love and appreciate my brothers and sisters here as well. This is a troubling disagreement, one we all need to pray about.

    In Christ,

    JL

    By Blogger Jon Lee, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:00:00 PM  

  • David,

    one thing that you may be unaware about Bro. Jon's new soteriology is that all one has to do to have eternal life is believe that Jesus is God. Therefore, one can trust completely in his works, in saints, in ordinances, in baptisms, or in his rituals for eternal salvation, but providing he believes that Jesus is God, he has everlasting life, and he can go through his whole life not knowing this fact.

    I am sure that this type of doctrine would be troubling to you as well.

    How about chiming in on my newest post about faith in Jesus of Nazareth?

    Your fellow blogger and brother,

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:05:00 PM  

  • John,

    you use John 20:30-31 to make an argument for one having to believe that Jesus is God.

    But in John 4:42, the apposition of "the Christ" is not "the Son of God" but "the Savior of the World". This informs the title, "The Christ". But nowhere in your soteriology do you submit that someone needs to believe that Jesus is "Savior" in order to be saved. This is a peculiar ommission on your part. It is one of convenience, because the case is very strong that to have saving faith one must believe that Jesus is a person's savior, the Guarantor of eternal life to the believer.

    You should have considered them both. John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gave us this appositional construction. It comes our way by no accident, but bolsters what the gospel of John already says: the purpose for which Jesus wishes men to place their faith in Him is for irrevocable eternal well-being.

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:11:00 PM  

  • Antonio -

    Nice try - but I'll answer you again. Only God can be the Christ, the Savior.

    Isa 43:11 -
    I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.

    God gives the gift of eternal life upon belief - one need not believe in Him for what He does - but simply believe in Him, the one true God - once hidden in the God of Israel - the Savior, Jesus Christ.

    In Him,

    JL

    By Blogger Jon Lee, at Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:30:00 PM  

  • Rose -

    Thinking more about this statement:

    "Believing on His name and receiving great truths about Him as they come… are one and the same. Rejecting great truths about who Jesus has so far proven Himself to be... and what He has done... is antithetical to "receiving Him.""


    It seems that this statement would support a type of progressive eternal salvation, support a process more so than a eternal salvation that is puncticular.

    That being said, I think there is more to this that could support saving faith being puncticular. Such as, can someone be drawn to saving faith in Christ without believing the gospel? I don't want to put God in a box but it's hard for me to accept someone as a brother/sister in Christ who doesn't believe the Lord Jesus Christ died on a cross for our sins and rose again in victory over death.

    By Blogger Jon Lee, at Friday, January 25, 2008 11:07:00 AM  

  • Rose,

    I began typing a response to this post, but then transferred it to a post of my own. This link is to a glorified comment on this post:

    http://unashamedofgrace.blogspot.com/2008/01/ignorance-and-denial-thoughts-from.html

    I hope that you find some time to comment on my latest posts.

    Your C&RFG partner,

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at Sunday, January 27, 2008 1:53:00 PM  

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