Unashamed of Grace

Tuesday, November 06, 2007

Does Anybody Agree with This Quotation? Part XXI

by Rose

Although it is true that God loves both the wicked and the righteous, it is also true that before the world was created, God chose to love only a few people and destine them to eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. He chose to hate the rest of mankind and destine them to hell for eternity.

By: (Identity withheld at the moment)

32 Comments:

It sounds a little bit mean.

By Matthew Celestine, at Tuesday, November 06, 2007 8:07:00 AM
Hi Matthew,
Yes, but is there anyone who agrees with it? I hope they will come out of the woodwork, or maybe no one does, which would be a good thing.

By Rose~, at Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:16:00 AM
It is an impossible construct. It is oxymoronic. God cannot at the same time love the wicked and condemn them to eternal punishment. Is not God also Just, and Wise? Is God not Love?

What of the other sheep not of this fold? What about the New Heavens and the new earth? God did not create the earth for nothing. The author of this quote does not know God.

By Chris Wilson, at Tuesday, November 06, 2007 12:02:00 PM
In a word, no.

Who said this, though? Anyone we know of?

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, November 06, 2007 12:18:00 PM
A strange quote, it does sound rather self contradictory.

By Jim, at Tuesday, November 06, 2007 2:34:00 PM
I disagree vehemently with the quote, & I have a guess as to who said it, but I will withhold it also!

By David Wyatt, at Tuesday, November 06, 2007 5:18:00 PM
Chris,
I am glad that said that. I agree... it is oxymoronic.

Ender,
Hi again!
Anyone you know of? Well, probably not.

Jim,
Nice to see you out and about. I agree with your assessment.

David,
I do not think you could guess. But here is a hint: he graduated from the Master's Seminary. hehe

By Rose~, at Wednesday, November 07, 2007 7:29:00 AM
Ray "Comfort"

By Kris, at Wednesday, November 07, 2007 1:44:00 PM
Phil?

Turk?

J-mac jr?

come on Rose tell me tell me

by the way I agree with David Wyatt, I hate the statement. Statements like that almost destroyed my life AFTER i was saved.

By Kris, at Wednesday, November 07, 2007 1:47:00 PM
Ok Kris,
I'll tell ya

By Rose~, at Wednesday, November 07, 2007 2:06:00 PM
I am relly glad no noe agrees with this quotation.
It is on a cultic website.
This Website

The man's name is Darwin Fish. I was honestly searching for information when I happened upon his statement of faith. It is appalling. One of the interesting things is his list of false preachers: Many are on it, but here are just a few examples: John MacArthur, J. Vernon McGee, the Pope, Joel Osteen, Tony Evans, Chalrles Spurgeon, etc...
The list is various!
In one place he even goes on to say that he himself is the only true preacher that he has ever heard of. A real cooky individual... certainly not what the Masters Seminary is trying to produce.

He is the second Calvinist gone bad I have encountered this week. One emailed me and I looked at his blog to find this statement (this is another man, mind you, than the one in the link and the quote in this post. This is *not* Darwin Fish):

...there will be people in heaven who have never even head the name of Christ or been converted to the Gospel...
eternal salvation [is] totally independent of any human means what-so-ever.

That, frineds, is the logical conclusion of all this obcession over secret election.

By Rose~, at Wednesday, November 07, 2007 2:16:00 PM
His excessive legalism seems to harkin back to the Law Covenant. It is devoid of the love that Jesus commanded us to have, love of God, whole souled, and love of our neighbor.

The whole tone is angry and while he seems to pay lip service to a doctrine of Grace, his theology is devoid of it.

By Chris Wilson, at Wednesday, November 07, 2007 3:04:00 PM
I kind of figured after doing a search for it in Google. I stumbled onto it a couple of years ago. The doctrine is as scary as it's webpage.

I actually read some articles on Phil Johnson's website defending John MacArthur from Darwin Fish's attacks. I actually kind of feel sympathetic to MacArthur's position. Fish makes MacArthur look like a free grace believer!

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, November 07, 2007 3:11:00 PM
OK, I was wrong! I was guessing our ol' buddy A.W. Pink in his later years. Makes you wonder if "Darwin Fish" is his real name. Anyway, it is really bad. You are right, Rose, The Master's Seminary is not trying to produce THAT!
By the way, I made the plunge (may be more literally true than I imagine!) & created a blog. All are welcome to drop in, just please don't laugh me to scorn! http://hallelujahtisdone.blogspot.com/
God Bless!

By David Wyatt, at Wednesday, November 07, 2007 7:28:00 PM
This comment has been removed by the author.

By Colin Maxwell, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:57:00 AM
I think the statement is illogical, and my heart can never be drawn to an illogical God.

When you folks say "free grace", what does that mean? Are you believers in total reconciliation? Do you believe God's grace has been given freely to all of his creation? Is everyone included?

By bruced, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 6:15:00 AM
I should add... I tried to "push" myself to an illogical God for 35+ years of my life. What a huge waste of time! Then, I came to understand God in a new light, and now find myself inexplicably drawn to Him. Loving God used to be something I had to try to force myself to do (under penalty of death for not doing so), but now that I understand the incredible depths of his love for me, loving Him is a natural part of my being.

Funny how perspective changes everything!

By bruced, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 6:34:00 AM
Hey Kris,

Funny you should mention Ray "Comfort" in quotes. I was a disciple of his. The Way of the Master was more like The Way of Uncertainty.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 8:37:00 AM
"Funny how perspective changes everything!"

Its kinda like being born again is it not?

I agree, ender. The misery of uncertainty is far worse than the certainty of misery. :)

By Kris, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:57:00 AM
Bruced

Thanks for visiting.

'When you folks say "free grace", what does that mean?'

Spend some time reading our posts and Antonio's blog and you should get the idea.

'Are you believers in total reconciliation?'

I am not sure what you mean by that.

'Do you believe God's grace has been given freely to all of his creation?'

We believe the Lord Jesus suffered for all men and women and that the gift of eternal life is offered to all humanity.

'Is everyone included?'

Whoever places their trust in Jesus Christ for eternal life will be eternally redeemed.

However, those who reject His free gift of salvation will go to hell forever.

God Bless

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 10:52:00 AM
Rose, what makes you think Mr. Fish graduated from TMS? I could not find anything in his bio that indicated such.

By beller, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 11:14:00 AM
Click on his link "Who is Darwin Fish" and you will see this sentence; "Also during this time, I received a Bachelor's degree in Biblical Languages (Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic) from The Master's College (a false Christian school), married my wife, Kimberly, and spent nine months in Israel working on a Master's degree in Hebrew, which I never completed."

However, that is not supposed to be a reflection on the Master's Seminary. I am sure all seminaries have a cook or two out there.

By Rose~, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 11:24:00 AM
Okay, thanks. I missed that. I think technically the seminary is different than the college, but I know what you meant. I'm not sure seminaries have "cooks" out there... kooks maybe, but probably not cooks ;)

By beller, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:04:00 PM
Thanks so much, Matthew. I appreciate the explanation. I'm not sure, though, that I see anything different with your understanding of grace than I do any mainstream doctrine. I was searching for free grace, but I believe you are talking about the usual "transactional grace" (a grace that requires action on our part to be received) that organized religion teaches. No, I am searching for a much more powerful grace, for which there is no payment, and from which there is no escape.

Best of luck to you all! May you find what you seek!

By bruced, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:24:00 PM
Spectator,
Thank you. I knew that looked all wrong when I was trying to type it yesterday. I have a head cold, a bad one - that is my only excuse. :~)

By Rose~, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:29:00 PM
Bruced, faith is not action.

Faith is a passive trust in Christ for eternal life.
Faith is doing nothing at all.

I believe that you are an human being.

My belief required no action on my part. I did not decide to believe that you are an human being.

The believer comes to rely on Christ passively for eternal life. She does nothing to save herself, she simply sees in Him the guarantor of eternal life.

God Bless

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:29:00 PM
Hi Rose

I have found in the past that what some believe about God, they only want it known in their own terms. They like to blend with the woodwork as much as possible.
I was attending a Grace Evangelical Church that was looking for a pastor. I remember the man standing before the church and saying "It is unbiblical to tell people God loves them for in fact His plan for them might be the eternal lake of fire and you would be lying to them." Then when they asked if anyone else wanted to get up and say somthing they could. So I got up before the church and started to explain the man's belief like this. "It's as if God chose this half of the church to go to hell and this half of the church to go to heaven." Then the pastors wife said "we don't believe that and the pastor said I dont believe that." Then it sounded like most of the church was siding with them "they were saying no,,,no,,,they don't believe that. Probably alot of them to this day think I was mis-representing them. Anyway the pastor didn't get picked.
blessings alvin

By alvin, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:06:00 PM
I know what you mean, Matthew. I used to believe the same way. But, I came to a point in my life where I realized that anything that came from me was worthless. My "faith" was shallow at best, but coming to a point of honesty, I understood that my faith was a ruse, a fake, and a sham. I gave up on the requirement to "have faith" and that's when revelation came.

Relationship with God wasn't about me and "my faith" at all, but was about Him and His effort to reach out to me, whether I wanted Him to, or not. Until I was able to remove myself completely from the relationship equation, I had no peace. But realizing that the work of the Cross of Christ was an amazing exhibition of God's unselfish love for His creation, I awakened to the fact that Jesus brought redemption to all of creation. Redemption is ours whether we believe it or not, and understanding that draws us into God's incredible love. Firmly settled into His love, I was able to believe, not because I wanted to, or felt I needed to, but because I was led to. It was a gift. And knowing that His love doesn't change whether I believe or not, frees me from the requirement to believe, and allows me to rest in great confidence... in sublime peace.

My intent is not to come here and try to change anyone's mind. I just thought I might find others who received the same revelation as I did. But regardless, it is a delight to share the love of God with all I encounter along the way.

May you have great peace and happiness!

By bruced, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:08:00 PM
Hmmmm....Darwin Fish....That guy is a freak...Anyway, I haven't read the comments, but the guy has a website, and I recall reading this over there. He used to picket John MacArthur's church. Kinda funny if you think about it.

By Gojira, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 2:18:00 PM
Where you been gojo?

Havent seen you in a while. Is Scribe your other alias or is that a buddy?

By Only Look, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:22:00 PM
Hey Bruced. You think that is why the guy told Jesus, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief."?

Seems like an oxymoron but it is what you and Matthew are saying and many of the Calvinists and Arminians have been arguing about for centuries....and so this blog and others go on like the energizer bunny thinking they are going to change each others mind when in fact God is meeting them in His way and where they are at and leading them to faith in Him when all faith seems impossible to posses as Salvation is literally and act of God, hence you and Matthew sound much like a Calvinist at times, yet may disperse from Calvinist teaching and even vehemently argue against the anomalies that seem so ever presents so as to lead to men that seem almost to be saying the same thing at times...to disagree?!?.

And everybody said, "Amen"

This is why God loves the whole world, but hates the wicked. This is what the Bible says. I do not fully understand it all, but Scripture says it and so I must believe this oxymoron to be true somehow. I dont agree with how the statement is worded though, because God loves the whole world and so you cannot isolate him hating the wicked into a seperate compartment and break off a piece of John 3:16, but you must accept that all of those burning in hell right now are vehemently hated by God. He does not love the wicked, but hates them with holy entirety and all those who reject His only begotten Son. His love gift to the world that we must believe in by saying to God, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief"
Me? I have a Calvinist perspective but dont like the label much.

By Only Look, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:32:00 PM
The Bible has no oxymoron.
God loves His children, the righteous and hates the children of the devil, the wicked.
John 3:16
The world He loves relates to the ‘whosoever’.

By Paul G, at Saturday, November 10, 2007 2:24:00 AM