[We are] not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Wednesday, October 24, 2007

Does Anybody Agree with this Quotation XIX

by Antonio da Rosa

Calvinist, John McArthur, states: “That’s one of the reasons I know the Bible is written by God, because men would fix it. If I wrote a book that had those contradictions, Phil [Johnson] would edit them all out. One of the bench marks of divine inspiration is the fact that you’re dealing with transcendence.” (Election and Predestination: The Sovereignty of God in Salvation, emphasis mine)

What do you think?

64 Comments:

  • Well, there are two issues here.

    1) the general point that the Bible is not neat and tidy, which shows it to not the work of an human commitee.

    2) The doctrinal point as regards election.

    I think the first point is very valid, if a little simplistic. But to try to make a doctrinal point about election from this seems rather dubious.

    Then again, I have not read this work, so maybe I am missing the substance of the argument.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:28:00 AM  

  • I am sorry, I cannot focus on the content of the quote because I cannot get this mental image... of Phil Johnson meticulously editing the Bible... out of my mind. LOL!

    God bless us all, every one

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:50:00 AM  

  • So great a man as Martin Luther was not afraid of editing the Bible.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:57:00 AM  

  • I do find it rather disconcerting that MacArthur used the word "contradictions" to describe certain aspects of Biblical teaching. Perhaps when we find "contradictions" in our study of the Bible we ought to examine our interpretations more carefully!

    Blessings,
    Andrew

    By Blogger Andrew, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:36:00 AM  

  • The Bible has no contradictions.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:43:00 AM  

  • Why didn't Phil Johnson edit this contradiction from one of MacArthur's books:
    "...the gift that will cost you everything..."

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:30:00 AM  

  • "...the gift that will cost you everything..."

    Our faith in Christ brings us into a place of being reconciled to God. In that position one's possessions, friendships, time and money are now His, and at His disposal. We are no longer the captains of our own lives; He is. In many places of the Bible our walk with Him is refered to as knowledge of Him. The salvation experience is a living union with the Father through the Holy Spirit. He (the Holy Spirit) is the resident commander of our lives. Possessions, money, friends, they all come and go at His command. That is where the cost comes in, and is the context of MacArtur's point. Think of Simon Peter as the Lord revealed to him what kind of death he would suffer for the glory of God. Jesus told him that one day someone else would dress him and lead him to a place he would not want to go. Peter was then told to "Follow Me". That was MacArthur's point.

    Respectfully,
    Mark Pierson

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:58:00 AM  

  • Mark,
    Thank you for being respectful today.

    In that position one's possessions, friendships, time and money are now His, and at His disposal.

    Were these things not at His disposal before that one came to Christ?

    Possessions, money, friends, they all come and go at His command.

    In my understanding, the fact that He is 'Lord of all' means that He is in this position over everyone, not just someone who receives His gift. (Acts 17:26-28)

    (not trying to nitpick, but I still do not see how this gift costs us something. He was over it all before we received the gift)

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:22:00 AM  

  • Rose, do you think that Peter would have followed Christ to that death that Christ fortold had he not been a Christian?

    Would Paul have gladly suffered the loss of all things for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ were he not a Christian.

    Would the Thessalonian church have received the word in much affliction had God not done a transforming work on them as Christians?

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:48:00 AM  

  • What of Foxes' book of martyr's? Its pages would be empty had people not been Christians who suffered the consequences, consequences suffered because they counted the cost.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:53:00 AM  

  • People are not willing to die for truth unless they are convinced of its value, that is without a doubt. The Spirit of God surely gave those men valor.

    Mark,
    Do you think that salvation costs a man the same thing that it costs God?

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:54:00 AM  

  • gots to go to work now. have a good day.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:21:00 AM  

  • men would fix it. That's funny.

    By Blogger Chris, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:46:00 AM  

  • Since the quote makes no sense as given in the post, here is the MacArthur quote in the context of a complete paragraph:

    So God elects those that are saved; those that perish do so without any help from God. He is, as Phil said, passive. And you see that in Romans 9 where God is fitting vessels unto salvation. But vessels are being fitted unto damnation, and God is passive in that. It is also true that God does love humanity, and manifests that in common grace, as I said. Now, having said that you believe all of that, you now have a problem. And that is that your brain can't handle all of that information and bring complete resolution. But that's okay; because if you could, you wouldn't be human. There are things that only God can understand. And I really do believe that. I'm very content with that. That's one of the reasons I know the Bible is written by God, because men would fix it. If I wrote a book that had those contradictions, Phil would edit them all out. One of the bench marks of divine inspiration is the fact that you're dealing with transcendence. And an element of transcendence is the inability to grasp fully everything. So you're content to believe what the scripture clearly reveals. And yet, we're told to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. And so there is a universal offer that, from the standpoint of God is a legitimate offer, and which, sad to say, even heightens the culpability of the sinner, because if he treads under his feet the covenant and counts the -- Christ as an unholy thing, his punishment is even greater. So God doesn't have a problem harmonizing all that. Man, playing God, coming up with his concoctions in the middle, tends to destroy that all.

    By Blogger jazzycat, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:02:00 PM  

  • Dyspraxic Fundamentalist,

    Thanks for visiting my blog, and for a little bit of encouragement. I needed it after another person has been harassing me. :) I replied to your comments.

    It looks like you've got quite a bit going on here. I will have to check it out.

    Dave

    By Blogger PWTribune, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:33:00 PM  

  • Well, in the current climate in which we live, J-Mac can make all the unguarded statements he likes (and I take his quoted remarks here as a bit unguarded), and his sycophants will excuse him everytime. But let C.I. Scofield or some Free Gracer make an unguarded comment and watch the Hordes of Holland rise up as one man to condemn.

    By Blogger tjp, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:17:00 PM  

  • Well said, mr tjp

    It is the same ol' double standard that we get between the GOP and the liberal party. Let a Republican say anything close to being taken as a racist remark and he gets booted out of senate leadership. Let a Democrat say the same thing and watch all the liberal groups embrace him.

    By Blogger Antonio, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:48:00 PM  

  • I can remember reading this a while back and finding it helpful in understanding the purpose and cause of our Lord. May it help us all grow in our understanding of Him. Like MacArthur, we have good thoughts and reverance towards God and like Antonio we find ourselves often feeling a need to vindicate because we dont ever seem to understand each other, but looking through our Lord Jesus' lens we can be helped in great measure I believe.

    The Distraction Of Antipathy

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:47:00 PM  

  • I think if I were MacArthur I would have used the words "seeming contradictions". But we have feet of clay. May the Lord help us all grow and use care in everthing we speak on His behalf.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:51:00 PM  

  • Then again I have said many things that I wished I could take back so who knows what I would have said:-)

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:52:00 PM  

  • Let's see-

    Two problems here:

    1) Only a small part of what MacArthur actually said on a subject is quoted, and that out of context. A whole misconception of his intentions is thus provided, and shamelessly built upon.

    2) A couple of people come in to both provide context and also to provide the entire quote, and they are labeled "hordes of Holland", and discounted. (isn't there instruction against that kind of behavior in the left sidebar on this blog?).

    And the BC blog has been taken to task for this...

    Inconsistency, anyone?

    (watch me get called on this comment while "tjp" gets a pat on the back for his "Hordes of Holland" remark).

    I've apologised for mistreating a dear sister on my blog, and for behavior unbecoming a Christian. I was guilty, and to be blamed. I was wrong.

    Are people ever wrong here, especially when they violate the very rules of this blog, and are patted on the back for it?

    What of quoting MacArthur out of context, and later being shown the error of your way, will you ever own up to wrong doing?

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Friday, October 26, 2007 5:19:00 AM  

  • Mark,
    Are you going to answer the question I asked yesterday before you went to work?

    Hey, thanks for apologizing. I told you it was nice. Of course other people are sometimes wrong.

    I read the context of the quote that was provided. I don't think it changes it much, IMO. I still don't like the quote. Someone mentioned it was an "unguarded quote." Maybe that is a generous assessment? I could look at it that way.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Friday, October 26, 2007 5:46:00 AM  

  • Good morning, Rose!

    From page 93 of "Hard To Believe", the opening paragraph...

    "Don't believe anyone who says it's easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God's Son His life, and it'll cost you the same thing."

    MacArthur goes on from there to note that "faith's fruit is seen in actions, not intentions"..."The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic". From there on he speaks of the Christian's death to self.

    So, Rose, MacArthur is speaking of the Christian's death to self in that statement that you noted.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Friday, October 26, 2007 7:30:00 AM  

  • Mark, I try never to call people names.

    The exception that I have been pulled up on here is the biblical one of 'antichrist'. I think it is quite legitimate to use that term where appropriate.

    Please pull me up if I am rude and nasty.

    God Bless

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Friday, October 26, 2007 8:10:00 AM  

  • Matthew, where is the reprimand of "tjp"?!

    Now you know some of the reason why I want the link to my blog removed from this blog.

    Now, I've asked Antonio in email twice to remove it. I am not a friend in the blogosphere; I am a foe to FGT.

    Please honor my wishes!

    Mark Pierson - L/S CALVINIST!

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Friday, October 26, 2007 8:41:00 AM  

  • Mark,
    We are free to manage our own link list. Please afford us that latitude.

    Now, I was thinking about that quote, yes. Look at it again, Mark. He says how "to become a Christian." Then he quickly
    transitions to the life of a believer.

    Mark, following Christ as a believer will cost the believer, maybe even his life. There is, however, no upfront cost to become a believer.

    Mark, you say: MacArthur is speaking of the Christian's death to self in that statement
    that you noted.


    Yes, maybe, but without any doubt MacArthur's teaching demands an upfront commitment to be willing to die to self, even die for Jesus' sake to become a Christian.

    He (Jesus) wants disciples willing to forsake everything. This calls for full-scale
    self denial-to the point of willingness to die for His sake if necessary. That is the
    kind of response the Lord Jesus called for: wholehearted commitment. A desire for Him at
    any cost. Unconditional surrender. A full exchange of self for the Savior.

    (TGATJ by John MacArthur [Rev & Exp.] pp. 226, 148.)

    This is a blending of salvation and discipleship, which therefore, makes the cost of discipleship the requirement for salvation.

    Thus he (Jesus) turned away anyone who was reluctant to pay the price, such as the rich young ruler. p. 222 of TGATJ by John MacArthur, revised version.

    WRONG.

    Willing to pay a price does not
    save anyone.

    I am sure you agree with this, don't you? "Willingness to pay a price" - do you really want to stand behind the idea that this saves someone? Mark?

    By Blogger Rose~, at Friday, October 26, 2007 9:19:00 AM  

  • tjp,
    What exactly is a "Horde of Holland"?

    By Blogger Rose~, at Friday, October 26, 2007 9:20:00 AM  

  • >I am sure you agree with this, don't you? "Willingness to pay a price" - do you really want to stand behind the idea that this saves someone? Mark?<

    Rose, you misrepresent MacArthur. He preaches "by grace through faith"... Faith *ALONE*!!!

    You once said that you believe there are 4 Gospels. Well Matthew 11:28-29 and Mark 8:34-38 take place in an evangelistic setting, no?

    You see, in "TGAJ" MacArthur comes against the practise of some CD'S of separating the gospel Jesus preached from the one that Paul preached. This is wrong to do; but it is the foudational practise of those in your school of thought, and serves as the basis for FGT.

    Bottom line: the call to salvation and the call to discipleship are one. That is the Bible's teaching. Man has separated what God never intended to be separated. There will be serious consequences for running man made divisions into the His Word; divisions God never intended. Such is my disdain for CD and FGT.

    Now, I am prepared to complain to blogger if my link is not removed. I believe this is a cult and I do not want any association with it. Please honor my request. Thank you.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Friday, October 26, 2007 9:57:00 AM  

  • Mark,
    That does not sound very reasonable.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Friday, October 26, 2007 10:06:00 AM  

  • First you apologize, now you say we are a cult.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Friday, October 26, 2007 10:10:00 AM  

  • I was wrong to say that I had lost respect for you and those on your side of the debate. Brothers and sisters in Christ should not treat one another the way I did in that comment. I was wrong, and I am sorry. I will now delete that whole post.

    Wednesday, October 24, 2007 7:03:00 AM


    So are we brothers and sisters in Christ or cult members?

    By Blogger Rose~, at Friday, October 26, 2007 10:13:00 AM  

  • You are brothers and sisters who are sliding down a hill. Here EVERYTHING Hodges and Wilkin say is embraced. Anyone of you who disagree are spanked into submission. One of you disagreed this past summer with Hodges/Wilkin and was literally pounded (verbally) into a virtual retraction.

    I love MacArthur, but disagree with him about a good many things. I love Zaspel and Reisinger too, but disagree with points. I love Spurgeon, but he would have had a BIG problem with my not being a sabbatarian...

    Get my drift?

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Friday, October 26, 2007 10:37:00 AM  

  • Hi Mark
    Here is a good verse: Ecclesiastes 7:16 Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
    My philosophy is “if someone doesn’t have the main thing right, I don’t waste my time reading them.” If someone doesn’t believe the child like verses (John 3:16;5:24;6:47) I don’t give them my time. You can only read so much! Zane Hodges has the main thing right IMO. So I give him a hearing on everything he writes. And even things at first I disagree with him on, in most cases I find it’s because I’ve been indoctrinated with false teaching all my life. I haven’t found anything that he has written that I disagree with after searching the scriptures. I also give a lot of weight to his life. He is a very humble man, when he doesn’t know something he tells you “I don’t know!” He has given his life IMO like Paul did concerning marriage, he has given himself to the Lord completely. He was a Greek professor for years so he has a good handle on the original languages. Then he gave that all up to go and minister to a little poor Church, for around 45 years I believe. All this carries much weight with me. IMO Zane Hodges is a man of God to be held in high regard. The men you have mentioned up above wouldn’t even make it on my list because in IMO they don’t have the main thing right! Get my drift?
    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:14:00 AM  

  • Mark, we are quite willing to honour our contract with blogger.

    If you can show that in maintaning the link we have breached our contractual obligations, then we will remove it.

    As regards TJP, he has been warned before by Rose. I do not like some of the expressions he uses.

    I am not keen on rebuking people.

    A good reason for that is that I am a young man. The Scriptures clearly say that one should not rebuke an elder.

    I naturally feel inclined to defer to Antonio when it comes to maintaining order here.

    If you think that makes me weak and cowardly. Fine. I would rather be one of the meek of the earth. I do not think one can put too high a premium on humility.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 1:51:00 AM  

  • Alvin, You think exactly like I thought you would. No surprises there. Got that tunnel vision thing going on, eh? Thanks for the confirmation. Not a cult?

    MacArthur, Zaspel. Reisinger and Spurgeon don't have it right, eh?

    Ooh, this is good. Predictable, but good nonetheless.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 6:28:00 AM  

  • We are a cult and it is cool.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 6:35:00 AM  

  • Well, here's a thought:

    Free Gracers will still be allowed to comment on my site, but only if they do so as "other". IOW, your avatars must be left behind so as to make it impossible for anybody to track back to your blogs from mine. No links will be allowed either. Any violaters will be deleted.

    (There, that ought to make it easier to delink me. One less Calvinist blog upon which to advertise)

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 6:37:00 AM  

  • Say did you all happen to read the link that was posted?
    It was really good. Our late brother Oswald Chambers was really anointed with some good insights. This is good as well:

    On The Method Of Missions

    May the Lord open our eyes to His beloved presence so that we may cherish this with all that is in us.

    By Blogger Only Look, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 6:58:00 AM  

  • BTW, to the folks of Unashamed...I dont think it is right that you are not honoring Marks request. There are other reasons for why He is requesting this and I know he is seeking to be obedient to the Lord here. I for one am blessed by my brother and his struggle to live for God. Please, I encourage you to take his link off. It is the right thing to do.

    Mark, you are a blessing to me. Bless your heart.

    By Blogger Only Look, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 8:05:00 AM  

  • Mark,
    There. I took off your link. Does this solve your difficulty? I really hope it helps.

    To that quote from MacArthur - The book was revised and edited and it still says "to BECOME a Christian" - I assume you disagree with that based on your FAITH ALONE proclamation. I, for one, am glad we don't have to agree with everything anyone teaches.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 8:47:00 AM  

  • Mark,

    Rose took your name off the bloglist, but I re-included it with caveats that will prove that you are no friend to free grace. Hope you are now satisfied.

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:32:00 AM  

  • Matthew you crack me up!
    We believe in pure grace but yet I'm sure we don't fit into the orthodox perimeters, but yet Catholics do and five-pointers do.
    blessings alvin
    PS. I was giving my own opinion earlier not necessarily the opinion of UoG.

    By Blogger alvin, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 1:04:00 PM  

  • BTW, the comment I posted above
    Friday, October 26, 2007 9:19:00 AM

    was from of an email I received from Lou M. I appreciated the quotes in the email (from John MacA) and the evaluation of the quotes were just what I would want to say, so I posted them with only minor revisions. (just FYI to anyone reading here.)

    By Blogger Rose~, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:43:00 PM  

  • "The BLUECOLLAR, 'Salvation will cost you your life,' Clan Blog"

    Ya know, to be scorned by FGT is a badge of honor. Thanks for this honor.

    In the words of Sally Fields,
    "You like me, you really like me"... :-)

    Party on people!

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 5:41:00 PM  

  • Mark
    The saving of the life cost everything!
    The gift of life was paid for by Christ!

    And as Paul said:
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
    Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer it it?
    (Romans 6:1,2)

    blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:33:00 PM  

  • I do not see how you people get around the plain and simple fact that MacArthur was talking about the price a Christian will pay in THIS WORLD for having faith in Christ. He WAS NOT talking about paying for your own salvation; a point which MacArthur is clear in stating that Christ paid it all in "TGATJ", "TGATA" and "Hard to Believe". Your arguments stem from the erroneous practise of dividing Faith and Repentance. This is a man-made and utterly sinfull, if not down right demonic, hermeneutic which will find people embarking on a journey of false assurance, only to experience the horrific shock of being thrown into the Lake of Fire for having believed a false gospel.

    But of course partial quotes, mis- quotes, quotes out of context, and other deceptions are the rule of thumb on this blog.

    For the record: I said I was a foe of "Free Grace Theology (FGT)", not of free grace, as Antonio once again demonstrates his willingness to misquote in order to make his theological foes look evil.

    Happy deletion of this comment, Mr. Blog Administrator

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 7:50:00 AM  

  • Antonio,
    As one of 12 contributors to the Bluecollar Blog, I would like to say your inaccurate and insulting blog listing does not bother me one little bit. Considering your reputation around Christian blogs, it is really a compliment.

    I do think it demeans the honesty and class that has been shown by Matthew, David, and Jodie on this blog. However, that is their cross to bear. Oops, sorry to mention the cross since that may add something you don’t think is necessary to the gospel.

    Wayne

    By Blogger jazzycat, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 12:45:00 PM  

  • As Antonio is an older man than I am, I will defer to his judgement in the matter.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 12:51:00 PM  

  • Mark,
    No one had been deleting any of your comments.

    Now, you say: "I do not see how you people get around the plain and simple fact that MacArthur was talking about the price a Christian will pay in THIS WORLD for having faith in Christ. He WAS NOT talking about paying for your own salvation..."

    What are you saying? Are you saying that there is a price the Christian pays to THIS WORLD? Is that what you mean?

    Your comments make me think of two people huddled down in a country where it is a crime to be a Christian. One is a NOT a Christian, the other IS and is witnessing to him of the gift of God. He tells him all about by grace though faith, the salvationn that is available to all who believe, because of God becoming a man named Jesus and the awesome price He paid - God's blood shed for our sins.

    So the Christian says to the unbeliever,
    "Do you believe what Jesus has done?"

    And the unbeliever says amazed,
    "Yes, how awesome - He paid it all so that sinners could be right with God." (he really gets it!)

    The Christain then asks,
    "You believe it then? You understand?"

    And the other one says,
    "Yes, I believe and I am so thankful for all that God has done." (whispering all the while)

    And so then the Christian says to this convert, "Now the next step before you are a Christian is that you must be willing to die for this truth."

    And then the convert says,
    "Well, my next-door-neighbors are turning Christians over to the authorities and I am afraid that I *will* be sent to prison or executed if it gets out that I believe like you. I am afraid of that. I don't want to tell anyone just yet. I am glad for what Jesus has done, but I am afraid."

    And so then what does the evangelist say? Does he say,
    "Well, you believe in Jesus' Person, Work, and gift, but if you are not willing to die for this truth, then you cannot be saved by that faith that you have."

    What sense would that make? Does this speak to this "price" that you think the Christian must be willing to pay to the world?

    By Blogger Rose~, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 12:54:00 PM  

  • Wayne,
    Thank you for the nice compliment. That is now the second time in a week that you have so blessed me.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 12:55:00 PM  

  • Sorry, Mark, I will change it to say FGT.

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 12:59:00 PM  

  • Here is a quote from TGATJ Revised and Expanded:

    "Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God's Son His life, and it'll cost you the same thing. (See Chapter 6)

    By Blogger Antonio, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 1:03:00 PM  

  • Nice try, Rose. Paul the apostle preached Christ off the bat after his conversion; and was promptly persecuted, even to the point of having to be let down a wall so as to escape death, and to move on to evangelise other areas. I preached Christ right off the bat, and was promptly ridiculed and mocked by high school football and wrestling coaches and team mates alike. I knew that coming to Christ was going to cost at least that much. Your analogy of faith in your comment was insulting to those of us who hold to Biblical faith. Before I came to Christ I was told it would cost friends and bring on mockery and hatred. Those who led me to Christ were right in forwarning me of such things. I don't even recognise that "faith" you describe.

    Show me one Biblical experience where faith did not act. Just one, Rose. Your definition of saving faith is NOT Biblical. It is repentance-less. It is regeneration-less. It is typical of the positions held on this blog.

    So Rose, MacArthur is teaching that you must pay for your own salvation? Many of us have read and own those books that you referance. Are you willing to deny that MacArthur, in those very books, preaches and teaches that one is saved by faith alone in Christ alone? Are you sure you want to go there? yes or no.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 2:47:00 PM  

  • Those of us who came to Christ under the "Lordship" presentation have gone on to see prices paid for faith in Christ, and will continue to do so as family members laugh at us, some even going to their grave doing so. Neighbors who are visibly disgusted with us, being reported to human resources at work for preaching Christ, even in orderly fashion, while not denying our employer his due.

    Your definition is disgusting to me and those of us who knew there would be a cost and found out there surely was.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 2:56:00 PM  

  • I don't have the capacity within to pour the amount of contempt upon your definition of "faith" here that I think it deserves. It is unbiblical, period!

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 3:01:00 PM  

  • Faith works. There is nowhere in the Bible where it did not find expression, nowhere!

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 3:07:00 PM  

  • Mark,

    How much have you paid, and how much more do you owe?

    People pay things to receive things. What exactly are you paying for?

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at Sunday, October 28, 2007 3:43:00 PM  

  • Mark,
    "Nice try, Rose."
    I am assuming that you don't really mean this, although I was really trying to understand what it is you are saying. I am not sure what in my story you are referring to as "definition of faith."

    I am not trying to do "gamemanship" here. The things I blog about are things that are germaine to my real life experience and the people who are around me at church. I had a conversation about that story I told with a Christian frined the other day. I brought it up to you thinking that you were also a Christian frined.

    ??

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, October 29, 2007 6:07:00 AM  

  • Mark Pierson, I hate to say this and I did not think I woukld have to do so, but I am afraid it has come to this point.

    We are no longer happy with the comments that you leave.

    They are not constructive or helpful. They are full of bitterness and hostility.

    Your comments are neither edifying to us or to yourself.

    It is not in anybody's interest for you to continue making comments on this blog.

    Any further comments that you leave on Unashamed of Grace will be deleted.

    I am happy to accept kindly intentioned comments that you leave on my own blogs.

    Whether Antonio or Rose accept your comments is up to them.

    But I am afraid your comments are no longer welcome here.

    My prayers are with you.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Monday, October 29, 2007 6:08:00 AM  

  • Interesting discussion here...

    By Blogger Jim, at Monday, October 29, 2007 3:11:00 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:12:00 AM  

  • Come on Mark(Bluecollar) just drink the Free Grace kool-aid and be set free.:)

    By Blogger Kris, at Wednesday, October 31, 2007 3:36:00 PM  

  • Rose,

    By the "hordes of Holland" remark, I meant Dortian Calvinists.

    By Blogger tjp, at Monday, November 05, 2007 8:25:00 PM  

  • I just visited here - I see lots of arguing over doctrinal points - not a problem. But, the shock that one side should hold to their opinion while the other side holds to theirs - why is that so hard to comprehend. People at this blog believe one way and Mark and John MacArthur believe another. Obviously, Mark, when you come here, you will be disagreed with, and those from here who visit blogs you favor will be disagreed with. Why can't people just understand that they disagree - and leave it at that?

    By Blogger Suze, at Thursday, November 08, 2007 3:56:00 PM  

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