[We are] not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Thursday, October 11, 2007

The Day And The Hour

by David Wyatt

Have you ever heard anything similar to this from an evangelist, pastor or just another believer: If you don't remember the exact time that you were saved, then there is good reason to doubt your salvation. How can you know you are saved now if you don't remember the time? Believe it or not, this was once an earthshaking issue in my early days as a believer. I remember having myriad questions about just about everything as a new believer, & I got some sound Biblical answers, and I also got some pretty rotten unbiblical ones as well. I am sure you all are the same. Did any of y'all ever hear anything like this about the timing of your salvation? If so, did it ever bother you, or how did you overcome it? Maybe you are one that can remember the exact time. That is a good thing, I certainly do not disparage that. I do not know the exact time, but I do know an approximate time. But, as a good free grace man told me recently, what are we depending on for our salvation, Christ or our memory? Amen!! Any comments?


  • Amen. If we are trusting in Him alone for our salvation. WE are saved.

    By Anonymous bhedr, at Thursday, October 11, 2007 9:25:00 PM  

  • I think it is very unfortunate when people make those kind of comments.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Friday, October 12, 2007 12:39:00 AM  

  • For assurance check out 1 John. John says in 1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    By Blogger jazzycat, at Friday, October 12, 2007 6:31:00 AM  

  • Wayne, so which things is he talking about?

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Friday, October 12, 2007 7:03:00 AM  

  • Matthew,
    I quoted a verse in Chapter 5 where John says I write these things. "Things" indicates that in Chapters 1-4 he talked about several things that give believers assurance. The phrase, "by this we know" appears 8 times in First John. I believe this phrase points out the things he refers to in Chapter 5:13.

    By Blogger jazzycat, at Friday, October 12, 2007 7:21:00 AM  

  • That is a big interpretive assumption.

    What makes you think 'these thing' refers to any more than the preceding verses?

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Friday, October 12, 2007 8:44:00 AM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Friday, October 12, 2007 8:47:00 AM  

  • Hi David, we are not saved by a decision.

    I think for those who grew up in the church the time of their conversion may be a bit more difficult to peg.

    However for most folks I would suspect there is a rather definite period in which they came to the realization of their sinfulness and God's amazing free gift of grace.

    Even for myself having grown up in a christian home, I vividly remember the night hell became a reality to me and I saw my need for the Saviour.

    God bless,

    By Blogger Jim, at Friday, October 12, 2007 10:01:00 AM  

  • Hi David

    It should be said here that all true assurance of salvation and eternal life must rest on the “testimony of God,” for only that testimony has full reliability and solidity. The many professing Christians who think that a more stable basis for assurance can be found in the lives they lead are only deceiving themselves. There is never a time at all in our Christian experience where we are free from sin (cf. 1 John 1:8). To suggest that Christian experience can stand on some relatively equal level ground with the “testimony of God” as a grounds for assurance is nearly a blasphemy, since it compares human experience in its multitude of flaws with the flawless word of God.
    Those who are willing to look at themselves with complete honesty will find more grounds to doubt their salvation than to be assured of it. Some even teach that this uncertainty is healthy! But this does not reckon with the fact that the apostle John expected his readers to know that they had eternal life. The irony is that once Christian experience is made the grounds for assurance, as some hold First John does, John’s statement in this verse about knowing becomes a complete impossibility!
    The apostle here seeks to reaffirm the assurance of his readership. It was the antichrists who called that assurance into question! Zane Hodges from his book “The Epistles of John” Walking in the Light of God’s Love (page 228,229).

    By Blogger alvin, at Friday, October 12, 2007 12:20:00 PM  

  • Matthew,
    You said....That is a big interpretive assumption.

    What makes you think 'these thing' refers to any more than the preceding verses?

    I made no interpretive assumptions. I believe 1 John 5:13 is clear and simple enough that a third grader could understand it. One must read the entire epistle and see how John explained how people could know and thus be assured they have eternal life. I have made no interpretations on how John describes how people know for sure. 1 John 5:13 is a verse used in the EE ministry to let people know that they can know for sure.

    What do you think John’s message is on how people can know here in 1 John?

    By Blogger jazzycat, at Friday, October 12, 2007 12:54:00 PM  

  • Matthew,
    Does the following verse by Paul just refer to a few preceding verses?

    1 Cor. 4:14 I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children.

    Or would it be all the preceding verses where Paul is admonishing the Corinthians?

    By Blogger jazzycat, at Friday, October 12, 2007 2:34:00 PM  

  • Wayne

    1 Cor 4
    8 ¶ Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

    9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

    10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honorable, but we are despised.

    11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place;

    12 and labor, working with our own hands: Acts 18.3 being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

    13 being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

    I would argue that this is the 'these things' that Paul refers to.

    Paul could potentially have written those things with the intention of putting the Corinthian believers to shame. To suggest that 'these things' refers to the whole epistle is a quite unnecessary conclusion.

    Every Blessing in Christ


    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at Friday, October 12, 2007 2:45:00 PM  

  • Wayne, the phrase "these things I have written" occurs 3 times in 1 John. 1 John 2:1 uses it in the present tense, looking back on 1:5-10. It occurs again in 2:26, looking back at 2:18-25. It should be clear that 5:13 is looking back at 5:9-12, not the whole book. And for the record, I don't believe that John 20:31 is the purpose statement of John's Gospel. It is the purpose of the signs sections of John, but not the whole book. Dr. John Niemela, another Free Gracer, also agrees that John 20:31 is not the purpose statement.

    By Anonymous danny, at Friday, October 12, 2007 5:10:00 PM  

  • Thank you to all of you for your fine comments. Also thank you for your very Christian attitudes so far!

    I believe 1 John has been very much misinterpreted to call believers to look inward rather than to Christ & His Word for assurance. We should, I believe, look inward to ascertain that we are in fellowship with the Lord, which is absolutely necessary to a successful Christian walk now, as well as to receive a "full reward" as John says in 2 Jn.8. Actually the business of becoming conformed to His image is greatly furthered by walking in fellowship with the Lord, as we gaze on Him, so to speak, through His word as Paul seems to say in 2 Co.3:18. It also depends on what one's view of God's goal for the believer is. If it is merely to get us to Heaven, then a case could be made for taking 1 John as a whole for the purpose of giving the believer assurance of salvation. But if God's goal is Christlikeness, then the purpose of the Book is definitely fellowship, which seems to me at least to have the most Biblical support as a whole. The NT is filled with exhortations & warnings to faithfulness so as to gain rewards, & those are for Christlikeness,or being conformed to His wonderful Image! Oh, I have soooooooooooooo far to go in that!!

    Y'all are each & everyone a blessing to me, though I haven't gotten the signal blessing of meeting any of you face to face yet, as good ol' Rose did in meeting bro. Antonio. Of course, the emphasis in "good ol' Rose" is on the good, not the "ol'"!!

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Friday, October 12, 2007 6:15:00 PM  

  • Danny,
    The focus in 1 John 5:13 is assurance not the faith that brings eternal life. So, whatever verses it refers to, John is explaining how a believer may know he has eternal life. He is plainly talking about assurance. Therefore, anywhere in the whole epistle that John says, “by this we know” he is giving a reason for knowing something. For example John says in 1 John 2:3 ”And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.” In this passage he is giving a reason for assurance not a way to be saved. There are several “by this we know” passages that John gives in 1 John. They all give assurance of love, salvation, or something.

    Do you agree?

    By Blogger jazzycat, at Friday, October 12, 2007 6:21:00 PM  

  • Danny I agree with you on John 20:31. I also heard John's talk.

    1 John 5:13 the assurance there is based upon the testimony of God. That God has given us eternal life vs.11. It is not based upon their experience!
    1 John 2:3 what they know there is based upon their experience of abiding vs.6
    The word "know" has a wide meaning. Philip knew "The Christ" in the proposition of being born again, but did not know "Jesus" in the proposition of the resurrection (John 17:3;14:9).

    It is at precisely this point that much contemporary interpretation of the Epistle of John jumps the track. This verse is often taken as a way of knowing whether or not we are really saved. But that flies directly into the face of all Johannine theology, according to which we are saved by believing in Christ for eternal life (John 3:16;5:24;6:35 and passim; the references are numerous). The response often made is that although salvation is by faith, we cannot know whether our faith is real unless we keep His commandments.
    The idea that a Christian can believe in Christ, without knowing whether he or she has really believed, is complete nonsense. Of course we can know whether or not we believe. That we can know this is both common sense and completely biblical.
    First John 2:3 is not talking about the saving knowledge of Christ. It is true that all believers do know God and Christ at a fundamental level; they know God as "the only true God" and they know that Jesus Christ has been sent by Him (John 17:3). But at the level of communion and fellowship, a believer may not know his Lord.
    Zane Hodges page 75,76

    By Blogger alvin, at Friday, October 12, 2007 11:41:00 PM  

  • Hi Wayne,

    Yes, the several "by this we know" sayings are meant to give an assurance of something. And that something depends on the immediate context of whatever John is discussing. I agree with you that John isn't telling them how to be saved in 5:9-13, but focusing on the assurance for those who have already believed. All FGers would agree to this. No FGer would say that 1 John gives ways to be saved. But I think you and I can both admit that an unsaved person can be saved by reading 1 John 5:9-12, provided that there is someone there to explain it and give a good explanation of Jesus' Finished work.

    Have you noticed how many people have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, seen all the salvation by grace through faith passages, and still think that salvation is by moral effort? Reflecting on that has shown me that without the Spirit and someone to explain the simplicity of the Gospel, no one can be saved. Of course, a person who is open to the Spirit and reads the NT with the specific goal of finding out how to be reconciled to God can be saved without a human to explain it, but I don't think that happens that often. If we were to quote John 3:16 to someone and ask them how a person receives eternal life based on that verse, I'm sure most people would still say something about good behavior.

    Going back to 1 John 2:3, I don't see "knowing God" as having anything to do with assurance of salvation. John is simply giving his readers assurance that they intimately know God if they keep his commandments. In Titus 1:16, Paul talks about believers who profess to know God, but deny Him by works, and yet Paul obviously considers them saved, as he calls for their rebuke, so that "they may be sound in faith" (1:13). I also think it's crucial that in 1 John 3:15, the believer who hates his brother is said to be like a murder, and reminds us that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. The key words are abiding in him. John doesn't say that no murder has eternal life. He says that no murderer has eternal life *abiding in him*. The believer who hates his brother has eternal life, and yet that life is not abiding in him, meaning he's not laying hold of his eternal life (1 Timother 6:12,19). Such a believer won't have much more than basic entrance into the Kingdom. But the believer who lays hold of eternal life, and thus has eternal life abiding in him, will reap the "reward of eternal life" and store up a rich experience of that life, along with an abundant entrance into the Kingdom (2 Peter 1:11, Galatians 6:8-9). Completely unlike the shortsighted believer who has forgotten that he was purged from his sins (2 Peter 1:9).

    The "these things" in 2:1 is referring back to his section on sin in 1:5-10. He tells them not to sin. In 2:18-25, he talks about antichrists who deny Jesus, and tells them that he writes these things (v 18-25) to warn them about those antichrists who try to seduce them. In 5:13, he's reminding them that they have the gift of eternal life, referring back to 5:9-12.

    By Anonymous danny, at Friday, October 12, 2007 11:54:00 PM  

  • Hey Alvin. Yes, it's inconsistent when our fellow FGers rightly point out that 1 John 5:13 refers to 5:9-12 only, and then say that John 20:31 is the purpose statement of the whole of John's Gospel. I'm glad Niemela brought this to people's attention.

    Hey again Wayne. I forgot to add this. Since laying hold of eternal life 1 Tim 6:12-style leads to a greater experience of that life both here and in the Kingdom, I take Jesus' equating knowing God with eternal lifein John 17:3 to refer to this abundant life, and not to having the gift of eternal life. The immature believer has the gift of eternal life, but doesn't reap the reward of the abundant eternal life. The mature believer experiences eternal life fully, and thus can be said to "know God" (1 John 2:3, John 17:3). :)

    By Anonymous danny, at Saturday, October 13, 2007 12:08:00 AM  

  • Hey Alvin, so you see John 17:3 as referring to knowing God at the basic level of salvation, and not as the mature knowledge of 1 John 2:3. I take the other FG view, as you can see in my comments to Wayne. I see John 17:3 referring to the abundant life like 1 John 2:3. Like Marty said, "eternal life is knowing God, and yet is had by those who don't know God" ;)

    By Anonymous danny, at Saturday, October 13, 2007 12:15:00 AM  

  • Hi Danny
    In John 17:2 (that He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him.) Then in 17:3 Jesus is explaining what eternal life is. So I see in this context the basic meaning.
    I like what Zane says on this subject: Even in human relationships the word Know is quite flexible. I may know persons in the sense that I recognize them or am acquainted with them; but at the same time I may not know them in the sense of intimate knowledge or real perception of their character or nature. "I thought I knew you, but I don't," is a perfectly comprehensible statement in English. So to, the Christian who does know God as the true and living God and who knows His Son as his Savior (John 17:3) may be very much a stranger to God in terms of intimate knowledge of His character and ways. All interpreters of the New Testament must keep in mind that, in both English and Greek, words for "knowing" are polymorphous, i.e., used in many ways.
    Thus the test suggested by 1 John 2:3 is not of the saving knowledge of God or of Christ, but of the experiential knowledge of God and His Son. To get this wrong, as many commentators have,is to lay the groundwork for complete misreading of the epistle! (The Epistle of John page 77 Zane Hodges)
    What Marty said was true and can be seen in what Jesus said to Philip,,,,,alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Saturday, October 13, 2007 8:24:00 AM  

  • Hey Alvin. I already agree with you that the word "know" is polymorphous. You know I already agree that 1 John 2:3 is referring to intimate knowledge. I was just saying that I think John 17:3 is also referring to intimate knowledge, and not to saving knowledge. I would say that John 17:2 is about saving faith, while John 17:3 is about intimate knowledge that not all saved people have. People receive the gift of eternal life by believing (John 17:2). Since eternal life is full of potential, the next verse, 17:3, seems to be referring to the intimate knowledge that believers should aspire to. Kind of like John 10:10, where Jesus mentions both the gift of eternal life and the reward of abundant eternal life. So I would say John 17:2 is true of all believers, while John 17:3 is referring to rewards for faithful believers.

    By Anonymous danny, at Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:50:00 PM  

  • Danny I agree with you. After looking at 17:3 more it's more then just a knowledge of Jesus as "The Christ" which produces eternal life (John 4:14,26;20:31). But is a deeper knowledge of God (that they may know You, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent.) I believe this gives strength to Zane,Bob,Jeremy,Antonio's position that one only needs to know Jesus as the Christ to be born of God (1 John 5:1a).
    blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:13:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:39:00 PM  

  • Hello Lou, I should have known you would have your ear to the wall,,ha! ha!
    You said:Why is John 5:1 quoted, but not 5:5-6?
    Why? Because it is a statement of fact! It is the bear minimum to believe! That's why! This is what the woman at the well believed! And she was born again, and John is giving that fact in his epistle. God has made it so simple that anyone can believe Jesus simple promise and be saved. "The Christ" is the One who guarantees eternal life, one drink and you will never thirst!

    Lou you asked: Clearly, this is appositional to "the Christ" (cf. John 20:25-31).

    I'm glad you brought up Thomas!

    Good old Thomas was born again by just believing in "The Christ" the bear minimum. I mean if Thomas understood that Jesus was God what would be the big deal of rising from the dead? Jesus had risen Lazarus from the dead! But just as Nicodemus "for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." They did not believe or understand that Jesus was very God of God standing in their mist!

    Lou I could just hear you trying to explain to a little child the Trinity and expecting them to believe it to be saved.

    Jesus meets us where we are in our ignorance and at our basic need "water."

    ps. Of course Nic was unregenerate when he said that. But we hear Catholics who state that Jesus is God and they are still unregenerate, if they have not believed in Jesus as "The Christ" the bear minimum.

    By Blogger alvin, at Sunday, October 14, 2007 9:14:00 AM  

  • Of course the majority of people are going to be saved THROUGH the eighth sign the cross and repentance of sin because the Holy Spirit is convicting the world of sin, judgement, and righteousness. They receive that living water when they believe in Jesus as “The Christ” the One who saves them completely.
    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Sunday, October 14, 2007 10:52:00 AM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:55:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:14:00 PM  

  • Good subject, David.
    I know the approximate time, but certainly not the day. I know at the beginning of the fall of 1986 I was lost and then by the time November rolled around I was saved, I was convinced about Christ, His person and work on my behalf.

    I have heard a woman I know say "I know I am saved because I have the date." That really puzzled me but then I figured it out later what she meant. I think it is rather odd to look at it that way.

    "Have you ever?" That should be the question. "Have you ever trusted into Christ for salvation /eternal life?" Not, "When did you?" God doesn't check our calendar to see if we are saved. :~)

    Thanks for bringing this up.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:47:00 PM  

  • Thank you Rose for getting us back on topic! I remember early in my Christian walk that this was a monumental issue for me, as about 10 others were! But, you know the Lord is patient & kind since He allowed me to work through many of them & good solid Bible-believing men & women helped me see the truth in a lot of these issues. On some, I followed bad teaching & in time, the truth came out & I was given grace to repent of my false beliefs & come to the truth. But this one really botehred me for a long time & I have been encouraged to see that I was not alone. I still like bro. Brian's initial comment: brief & to the point!! Y'all are all a blessing to me. Would any of you care to comment on how you overcame this, if it was indeed ever a problem for you? Isn't that interesting also how some issues are earthshaking for some of us, & for others, the same issues are almost non-existent? Thanks again for all your input! God Bless.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:56:00 PM  

  • Lou your first question:
    1) Your thoughts on the Hodges, GES non-deity interpretation in regard the Lord's titles "Christ" and "Son of God."

    I believe that anyone today can be born again just as the ones in John's Gospel. I dont believe that the women at the well as many others understood that Jesus was God. I believe this is where GES is coming from and I agree.

    You asked:
    2) Your documenting where I expect a little child to understand and believe the Trinity to be saved.

    If I'm wrong on this? I'm glad! I've heard of your checklist to be saved. Maybe you can share it with me just what one needs to believe to be saved?

    You speak of integrity:
    If you want to be considered by readers as a man with some level of integrity,

    I would say the same goes for you Lou! You have made personal attacks and misquoting people your practice. If I have misrepresented you unfairly in anyway I apologize. And I think you should be willing to do the same if you want to have any level of integrity! What say you?

    thank you alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Sunday, October 14, 2007 8:09:00 PM  

  • Sorry David you just got back on track and I derailed you again. I'll try to stay on track.
    Myself I was raised Baptist. My Dad was a pastor. Raised Lordship salvation all the way. I had to be completely retrained. Which goes to prove theres hope for anyone!
    blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Sunday, October 14, 2007 8:16:00 PM  

  • I remember my first experience at 12 years old of walking an isle. I can’t remember what the man prayed with me, but I remember feeling very relieved that I wasn’t going to hell.
    The next experience I remember was around 22 years of age walking an isle and later being baptized. But later on quit going to church because I new I couldn’t live the Christian life.
    My next experience was at age 35 which was life changing. But as time went by I lost the desire to go to Church. Later I became involved with youth ministry and a care center ministry and got on fire for Christ.
    At age 45 I bought a second hand book for 5 dollars “Absolutely Free” by Zane Hodges. For the first time in my life I understood the difference between discipleship and the gift of eternal life. "I was amazed" Discipleship costing everything and the gift of eternal life being free.
    Looking back on my life now I wouldn’t trust my eternal destiny on any of my experiences, but I would on Jesus simple promise of everlasting life when I finally understood it.
    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Sunday, October 14, 2007 9:52:00 PM  

  • Alvin,
    I appreciate that testimony a lot. There is s uch a HUGE difference between discipleship and the gift of salvation/eternal life. HUGE. Understanding this clears up so much confusion.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, October 15, 2007 4:57:00 AM  

  • I love that book too!
    I wish ZH would stick to that kind of writing in the present day. There is almost nothing in that book that I would ever take issue with. Lou probably would appreciate it as well; if he ever read it, I have no idea.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, October 15, 2007 4:59:00 AM  

  • Thanks Dave and good post. The date is timeless for me now. Of course as a child my mother taught me the truth and I accepted it, that God hates my sin and that Jesus was my sinbearer and that I must lay all of my sin upon him and we knelt and prayed and I accepted Christ. Of course everytime I allowed sin into my life I was often bothered and troubled in bed at night until I confess it. It is good to keep short accounts with God. I left home angry though and joined the military and just as soon as I did my time Sadaam went into Kuwait and I had to go over there and it was there that I accepted fully that I was going to die as one day a boiler explosion happened on ship. I can remember sneaking off to see Nightmare on Elm street in High School and my DAd catching me out and caught me off gaurd. I was troubled that night as I lied to him about where I was, but also over the movie that romances sensuality with death. Years later in that war a freddy Kruegar perfectly and well painted picture was painted on the boiler room door. A christian chief would come down to visit me and I went to the Bible study with him(he called me a couple of months ago to my joy btw). I can remember him warning us about that picture and saying, "You cant have a picture like that on a door and God not be angry about it. Be not deceived, God is not mocked."

    I thought to myself...aw comon' Cheif, now your acting silly like all those fundamentalist I grew up with always harping on things. The day the boiler room exploded though, It was no longer silly. I was deeply troubled and could not get the verse, "The wages of sin is death..." out of my mind. For some reason I kept meditating on the first part and I couldnt get the images out of my mind. I started then to read my Bible, but I became even more deeply troubled as I read through Leviticus and saw how serious God took sin. I realized that I would have been stoned to death if I was lived in the camp of Israel back then. I began to fear the Lord unlike I ever had. I can remember asking another friend who said he had gotten saved as a child but then asked me, "How could I have done some of the things I did?"

    I began to wonder even more on this question. I along with he had been doing some wrong things and all of those dirty chants we sang as we ran and all of the vile stuff. I was just deeply bothered and then I went up to the Bible study one night after the explosion and those sailors death on board the Iwo Jima knowing the boiler room door with Freddy Kruegar had blown off of its hinges never to be replaced again all the while deeply bothered about my sin and we began to sing hymns. When we got to the line in the Hymn It Is Well With MY Soul, My sin, oh the bliss, of this glorious thought, my sin, not in part but the whole, is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more...

    I began to weep and experience a joy unlike I had ever experienced before. I wept so hard...I had just never known. It was like the hour I first believed and saw that everything was taken care of and it was as if God was telling me that my salvation was timeless bought in eternity and all I need is rest there in what He has done for me and live for Him.

    Since then I have failed, but I have also learned and my point of referance is in that truth. Many have tried to make me doubt with this date thing and I would go back into doubts, but I always come to the deep realization that I am born again by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and He is mine because I have trusted in Him alone to pay my sin debt and I am washed by His blood by work of the cross. This can never be reversed. It is finished.

    All these things were Gods sovereign hand though as I look back and this is simply why I have a Calvinist perspective. It was all to supernatural and so real how he almost signed his Name on my judgment, discipline and salvation. It is all just to personal to ignore. I dont think I am better than anyone by all means, but I just cannot ignore the fact that He pursued me and I had a will that always wanted to go in the other direction, but a will that by the power of the Cross and by the power of Gods sanctifying hand alone teaches me to walk with Him.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Monday, October 15, 2007 7:04:00 AM  

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    By Blogger Bhedr, at Monday, October 15, 2007 7:12:00 AM  

  • btw DAve...you said>Isn't that interesting also how some issues are earthshaking for some of us, & for others, the same issues are almost non-existent?<

    Amen. Only the shepherd knows our needs and I think it helps us mature, the more we understand this.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Monday, October 15, 2007 7:13:00 AM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Monday, October 15, 2007 1:35:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Monday, October 15, 2007 2:39:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Monday, October 15, 2007 5:54:00 PM  

  • Bro. Brian,

    Thank you again brother for your kind & excellent comments. I appreciate you & your obvious love for Christ & His people. Thank you also for sharing your testimony of Christ's working in your life. It is so interesting to me how He uses so many different circumstances, situations, people, etc to bring us to the realization of our need of Him. As I've said before He even used an old '65 Impala SS to show me my need!

    Rose! We're going to have to start calling you "Rose Carpenter" since you have hit so many nails on the head! I couldn't agree more with your statement "I wish ZH would stick to that kind of writing in the present day" speaking of his great book, "Absolutely Free!"
    I really appreciate he & the GES in their earlier writings & stance. I have been helped & blessed by so much of what they have produced in past years. I say that with trepidation, since we have already been far afield of our topic from this very subject here. But you are right, Rose, in my estimation.
    I also resonate with your statement: ""Have you ever?" That should be the question. "Have you ever trusted into Christ for salvation /eternal life?" Not, "When did you?" God doesn't check our calendar to see if we are saved. :~)"
    By the way, bro. Alvin, you have blessed me on more than one occasion! Thanks for sharing your testimony as well. God Bless you all.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Monday, October 15, 2007 6:43:00 PM  

  • Thank you David for the kind words, you have also blessed me many times. I think of you as a straight shooter, I'm from Montana you know! Or was anyway, I'm learning to be a Washintonion or something like that.
    blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Monday, October 15, 2007 7:55:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Monday, October 15, 2007 9:43:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Tuesday, October 16, 2007 4:54:00 AM  

  • Thank you brother Dave. I appreciate you as I often hear you on the radio both understanding the simplicity of Childlike faith in Him and what He has done for us, yet I also hear you calling us to deeper waters as well and you do have a deep understanding that has been helpful to me. I was listening to you on the way to my father in laws funeral service yesterday as you talked about salt losing its seasoning. Good words to meditate on as I thought of how men have cast me into the fires for my poor testimony in the past and how I laked maturity, yet all the while knowing that God was sovereignly working this for His good. I heard once that the early church would make backslidders lay down on the threshold of the entrance of the house or building they worshiped in and everyone would walk on them as the man was laying down saying, "AS they trample upon me as I trampled upon the Son of God." before they would accept them back into the fellowship. In many areas of the early church they must have taken sin very seriously and perhaps this is why the apostle Paul was so indignant that the Corinthian Church get back to their firstfruits. The Holy Spirit will leave you restless if you fall into sin and make you miserable until you get it right and get back in fellowhip or make the conviction so heartbreaking that you die from the idolatry you embrace. This is what I believe if you are a child of God. God hates sin as it cost Him so much.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Tuesday, October 16, 2007 6:45:00 AM  

  • Lou,
    I think you are stretching, really, saying that the seeds of the controversy of today were in that book. Perhaps on the repentance issue which you have a problem with him over, you may be right, but the other things are just not there.

    Ya know what? I think I would like to do a post on the word "repentance" and why it is defunct. Not the concept, mind you - or should I say - the conceptS, but the word. It just is not helpful at all because there are so many meanings. No one is on the same page about what they are talking about when they use the word "repentance". I have read so many things in reference to this word, it makes my head spin! I have no idea what you mean by it.

    change of mind
    turning to God
    abandoning sin
    sorrowing for sin
    seeking God's righteousness

    I, for one, can see a couple of things in that list that would be implied in becoming a believer. I also see a thing or two that would be the LS definition of becoming a believer. If you feel ZH left the latter out of his book, perhaps that is why the book seemed right to me!

    It is a good book.

    I must say I agree with much of what you have said about some of the more recnt things and the lack of "relevance" which has followed for him, unfortunately. I think he is a great man and has a lot of really good things to say. I have read many articles by him that were great and so so heloful.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:49:00 AM  

  • BRIAN!
    How can I hear David Wyatt on the radio??? I had no idea we had a radio voice on our blog!

    By Blogger Rose~, at Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:49:00 AM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Tuesday, October 16, 2007 10:28:00 AM  

  • You need to check with the earnest contender:-) He has a link to BBN on his site as I recall. Dave comes on at the prayer hour from 1-about 1:45 eastern time. In fact I just got done listening to him talk about the moon reflecting the sun and our lights shinning in darkness. I remember that Kennedy calamity where two ships colided because the lights were not working right or something. Truly a good analogy bro Dave. May the Lord continue to bless BBNs ministry in the darkness of America today.

    I listen in the truck everyday but today I am at home with my wife as her father passed away this weekend and the funeral was yesterday. Ill be back to work tomorrow.

    By Anonymous bhedr, at Tuesday, October 16, 2007 10:28:00 AM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Tuesday, October 16, 2007 10:30:00 AM  

  • Bro. Brian,

    You are very kind. I love doing those devotionals. I thank the Lord for the wonderful opportunity & appreciate prayers for HIs grace to bring some useful comments from His Word.
    Rose, you can hear BBN on the Internet at www.bbnradio.org. I have a little devotional spot at 1:15PM ET Monday through Saturday. BBN is the greatest ministry I know of, & I was saying that way before the Lord ever called us there. I could go on all day about the evangelistic chat ministry & the free online Bible Institute with 102 Bible courses all free of charge of course, just like the Grace of God in Christ to us! But I won't go on about all that! (HA!) The Lord is soooo good to me to allow me to be a part of such a ministry.
    OK, now back to our topic! Have any of you ever heard an evangelist or pastor say something like this in his invitation: "I really sense that someone here is not right with God & you are here tonight for that reason. You should come now & get right with God. This may be your last chance," etc etc. Of course, often some will come & the invitation will continue. That used to really make me worry that though I really believed I was right with the Lord as far as salvation went, that if God had told that man about someone needing to really get saved, no doubt it was me, because if anyone can be wrong about things & actually be lost, it has to be me! I've also heard others say things like, "If you're not sure you're saved, then just come on down now & make sure. You can always look back to this time if you have doubts & know the issue is settled" etc etc. Again, things like that used to really stir me up, but no more. I am so thankful that it does not depend on me doing something, but by simple faith receiving what HE has already done & just resting in His finished work & promise! That is what I now go "back" to, not a time when I "really meant business" etc. Any other comments on this?

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:44:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:24:00 AM  

  • Hi Rose

    I think a very good indication on how to use the word repentance is how Jesus Himself used it. Jesus said in Luke 11:32a “The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; Then in Jonah it says: Jonah 3:10a Then God saw their WORKS, THAT THEY TURNED FROM THEIR EVIL WAY; and God relented. And we see in Luke 3:3b preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. I believe Zane showed clearly in his book “Harmony With God” forgiveness of sins is only mentioned one time in the Gospel of John and it is not free grace language (John 20:23). This prescription of forgiveness that Jesus gives to His disciples is carried out in Acts 2:36-38 when they said “what shall we do?” They had received the gift of eternal life. But then Peter gave them Jesus prescription of forgiveness by telling them repent and be baptized before forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit would be granted. Of course those requirements only had to do with that generation, now when anyone believes they are granted eternal life at the same moment they receive the gift of eternal life. Also the ONLY book in the Bible that signs were included in it for the purpose that people might have eternal life is the Gospel of John. And repentance is not found ONE time in this book! Jesus would have ALREADY given the women at the well the gift of eternal life IF she new what the gift was and who it was that was offering the gift to her. She would have already asked and He would have already given. It had nothing to do with her sin! Why? John 1:29 sins were not the issue, life was. Simply the giving and receiving of a gift. As we see in Rev 22:17b Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
    And as Zane would say:
    Draw your own conclusions!
    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:56:00 AM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 11:21:00 AM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 11:40:00 AM  

  • Lou I think if people hadn't taken care of you by deleting so many of your posts you would have alot of apologizing to do! Also I read where you turned a bunch of young people away because you thought they were not serious enough to have the gospel explained to them which is worse then having young people have to understand the trinity! So I would worry about your own sins if I were you!
    Not to mention all your personal attacks on people, some because they are young!
    Lets see how many of your post get deleted on this one!

    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 12:16:00 PM  

  • Lou this is exactly what I said quote:
    Lou I could just hear you trying to explain to a little child the Trinity and expecting them to believe it to be saved.
    Lou I did not say that you said this. But I could amagine you expecting something like this because of the way you have come across in the past. I just believe all a child has to do to be saved is believe Jesus promise. You seem to have alot of things a child has to believe. This is my interpretation of how you come across. If I'm wrong you need to be more clear on what it is a person HAS to believe in order to be saved.


    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 12:37:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 1:40:00 PM  

  • Lou I stated what I believe a child has to believe to be saved. You haven't stated what you believe a child has to believe to be saved. I said "IF" I was wrong! You prove me wrong! State what a child has to believe in order to be saved?


    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 3:15:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:35:00 PM  

  • Lou I notice your not willing to say what a little child has to believe to be saved! This is very telling!
    And your not able to prove me wrong!
    And your also calling me a liar!
    So now your trying to redirect in order to not answer the questions.

    So lets see if I lied.

    quote of what I said:
    Lou I could just HEAR you trying to explain to a little child the Trinity and expecting them to believe it to be saved.

    This is Lou witnessing to a little child:
    You need to repent of your sin and believe that Jesus died for your sin and was buried and then rose from the dead and Jesus is God before He will give you His free gift of eternal life.

    Then the little child says: I thought the Father was God?

    Next you have Lou having to explain the trinity in order for the little child to be saved.

    Pretty easy to imagine isn't it!

    Lou's post
    tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 10:28:00 AM
    Lou said:

    Hodges's view of and total elimination of repentance as a condition for salvation paved the way for the crossless/deityless message the GES has ultimately adopted and come to be known for.

    I say this statement proves that Lou's conditions for being saved is (some kind of repentance,death, burial,resurrection,deity).

    Make sure you all read my post to Rose, which I meant for everyone to read on repentance. This was before Lou got on his HIGH-HORSE and deverted our attention. The post is Tuesday, Oct 16,2007 10:28:00 AM

    blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 6:26:00 PM  

  • Bro. Lou,

    I would appreciate you answering bro. Alvin's question, then let's move on to the discussion at hand. Have you ever struggled with this & overcome it? Do you have any thoughts on the topic. I would genuinely like to hear what you have to say on this.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 6:51:00 PM  

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    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:54:00 PM  

  • Lou,
    I have read all these comments. I think you misunderstood Alvin. He certainly didn't "lie." He was just imagining with words what it would look like to require these things of children that we seem to require of adult converts.

    So, can you answer me, then? What do you think a child must know of the Lord's deity/Personage and what about repentance for a little one? I really, sincerely have this question in my mind so it would be helpful for you to answer it for me.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:48:00 AM  

  • Hey Dave...its seems you and I share many common struggles from the past. Very similar. God uses our fears to bring us to trust in Him by that same fear from what I see all over scripture. May the Lord be praised that we have trusted in Christ. What wonderful hope he brings for the forgiveness of our sins.


    By Anonymous bhedr, at Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:13:00 PM  

  • Beautifully saod, bro. Brian. Forgive my absence lately. Been in Gamecock Country! Unfortunately my Gamecocks didn't fare too well against Vandy (Vanderbilt) this Saturday. But I digress! we had the great apportunity to promote BBN at the SC state fair. The Lord worked it out that an atheist, (one of the biggest-hearted people I've ever met!) was stationed in a booth right beside us! We got to share some with her, though not much since we were all so busy! Please pray for her. Her name is Cindy. God Bless y'all. I have some catching up to do!!

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:28:00 PM  

  • Wonderful Dave. I pray with BBN in the truck often. It is a wonderful time of prayer heard around the world. Can you imagine the blessed aroma as thousands if not millions pray at the same time each day? Oh how prayer works and how God moves in the hearts of us as we pray. May we forsake all and cleave to Him in prayer daily. I will remember Cindy brother Dave. You are a tremendous blessing to me.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:44:00 PM  

  • Thank you bro. Brian. You are a gerat blessing to me as well. I apologize for not giving my genuine condolences to you & your wife for the loss in your family, but it certainly sounds as if the Lord gave great grace during that time! We just lost a great warrior in our church. He literally single-handedly stood for our Godly pastor when a grouop of malcontents in the church tried to oust him just before we joined this church. He went to be with the Lord last week & it was very difficult for the pastor to preach his funeral because he is so emotional, but again God was gracious! He is so good to us! God Bless y'all. Thanks again bro. Brian for praying for Cindy. How great a witness she'd be if she only used her energy for the Lord!

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Saturday, October 20, 2007 6:41:00 PM  

  • Thanks bro Dave. And continue to pray for my wife. She is taking this very hard. She discovered her father in a way she never knew in these last ten months. Every Saturday night she sat up with him and she was weeping againg tonight because she could not be with him. It is very hard at times. Thanks if you pray for her.

    By Anonymous bhedr, at Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:36:00 PM  

  • Yes, bro. Brian, I am praying for your wife especially. I know the Lord is in charge & can bring healing from all this. God Bless you. Isn't it wonderful to be able to go to Him & pour out our hearts to Him as our refuge? (Ps.62:8) God Bless.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:37:00 PM  

  • I will lift her up also Brian.
    blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:43:00 PM  

  • Brain,
    I am sorry for her pain. :~(

    I hope to listen to you on the radio today!

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, October 22, 2007 7:46:00 AM  

  • David,
    I just heard you on the radio via computer!
    What a blessing.
    Yes, what we do DOES matter in this life... and the next.
    Thanks for that message.
    God bless, brother.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Monday, October 22, 2007 10:26:00 AM  

  • Thank you Rose. That means a lot to me. I am thankful that we are in the same Family! God Bless.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Monday, October 22, 2007 6:14:00 PM  

  • Are any of y'all here familiar with Chester McCalley? I really appreciated his Bible teaching. He has a web site devoted to much of his teaching, www.wordoftruth.net. I remember him saying something once that made me think. He said that he has absolutely no idea when he first trusted Christ & he accepted that as a gift from God. He said the reason for that is that so he cannot go back to "a specific time" when he was saved, then he also cannot cling to that time for his assurance, but rather cling to Christ through His promise. That makes sense to me. Any comments or ideas?

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Monday, October 22, 2007 6:25:00 PM  

  • Thanks Dave and Rose. I will give the hugs to my wife.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Monday, October 22, 2007 7:08:00 PM  

  • Hey Dave...let me give you a little blessing where God whispered his love to me both Sunday and today.

    My pastors wife. Martha Nida. I hear she has a brother that works with you all. Well she sang the song "Through it all I've learned to trust in Jesus"

    I began to weep yesterday morning as she sang like a soft sweet bird. I told her what a blessing it was to me and she said she was thinking of me when she picked it out. I was blessed by her kindness and thought. This evening as I got out of my tractor trailor and punched out at work around 5:55 or so, I was again thinking about this song she sang yesterday and as I got into my pickup to drive home and at the very moment I was thinking of the song through it all and opening my door turning on the keys with my radio already set to BBN...you guessed it. "Through it all" came on. It was a sweet lady with a soft birdlike voice, just like my pastors wife. What a hug from God.

    Only he can do that kind of thing as only he is reading our minds. It is a wonderful thing to be spoken to by the living God. As I keep a heart of prayer open during the day, I find he speaks in so many wonderful ways. Oh that we all would keep our hearts alive to him. What blessed communion and opportunity we have to sup with Him and delight in Him in this sin cursed world. He makes it all worth it all.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Monday, October 22, 2007 7:14:00 PM  

  • Did everyone notice that Lou wouldn't even answer a simple question when asked by David and Rose and myself?
    What does a little child have to believe in order to be saved?
    Why? I think it's because he'll give away what he believes, which isn't free-grace at all.

    Lou Martuneac's definition of repentance is the same as Lordship Salvation. Here are some quotes from Lou Martuneac's book (remember, Lou regards repentance as necessary for eternal salvation):

    “Repentance is an attitude that always results in action. ...Biblical repentance will produce a change of life evidenced by a new behavior as one yields to the working of God’s Spirit” (pp. 111-112).

    “...biblical repentance... [is] [w]hen a man understands that he is a sinner, and makes a definite, on-purpose decision to confess that sin, and turn from the old ways...” (p. 121).

    “Good works... are a by-product of repentance and saving faith. They are the evidences of genuine repentance and an unceasing gratitude for God’s mercy” (p. 123).
    Lou Martuneac would say yes. Here is his answer in case you missed it. Lou Martuneac says, “If a person expressed their intention to hang on to their sin I would stop right there. I would not attempt to lead them to pray for God to save them. That person is far from biblical repentance." (emphasis added Posted on August 18, 2006)

    Lou Martuneac's comments about repentance could be found in any textbook advocating Lordship Salvation. Repentance has always been a huge battleground in the discussion between Lordship Salvation and Free Grace Theology. But Lou Martuneac sides with the Lordship Salvationist.

    Notice Lou’s post above Monday, October 15, 2007 9:43:00 PM
    how Lou attacked Zane Hodges and the book Absolutely Free, saying it had the seeds of the obvious errors of Hodges today. And did you notice Lou’s mean attack on Hodges with these scriptures Romans 16:17-18 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ. But their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
    Folks that is very harsh! I don’t believe we should allow Lou to get away with such attacks on people!

    I believe Lou is out to cause divisions not only on this blog but just about everywhere he goes. They had to warn him again and again for his mean spirit on the GES blog. I believe Lou needs to repent of his mean spirit, personal attacks on Zane, Antonio, and myself calling me a liar. Notice he wasn’t able to prove I lied, and Rose even went back over all the post’s and said ”I certainly didn’t lie.” But Lou was not willing to apologize and take his own advice on meditating on scripture he gave me! We need to make him accountable for his actions. I believe Antonio has made the right decision to ban him from this site.
    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:45:00 AM  

  • Yes, Alvin,
    Lou was way off in this thread calling you a liar. I agree. I am sorry for that. You definitely did not lie.
    I do not know why he did not answer my question either.
    Oh well. I did like the one comment that got deleted.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:00:00 AM  

  • Alvin, wise words about Lou. He is not allowed to be here and his comments will be deleted.


    By Blogger Antonio, at Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:23:00 PM  

  • Bro. Brian,

    That was a beautiful testimony. Thank you for sharing it.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:39:00 PM  

  • Because of the confusion that can come by not sharing what is needed for salvation, I am not sure exactly when I was saved. I think it was when I was 5 and my mom told me about Christs sacrifice for me and if I believed in him I would have eternal life.. and then had me say a prayer inviting him into my heart. :) What I do know, is I believe now and thus I am saved. I remember when I was in boot camp, I prayed many times inviting him into my heart to make sure. I knew I did not want to be alone there. LOL. Now I know.

    By Blogger Trent, at Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:07:00 AM  

  • Rest in Him brethren for your souls keeping. He will do as he promises and rest the care of your life to His control as you have rested the care of your soul and may he direct you as you gaze upon his blessed face and Behold Him.

    May the Lord continue to bless you David as you encourage us to keep our eyes upon Him as well as identify with our fleshly struggles through this wicked world. May His overcoming power reign in us and may we continue in a life of prayer with him. I enjoyed another prayer time with the BBN family today. What a time of blessed quietness as we pray for the needs of so many who are struggling in our nation today.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:41:00 PM  

  • Bro. Trent,

    Thank you for your comment. You raised a very important point. Confusion regarding the way of salvation! I cannot count the "revival" meetings & just plain services where a pastor or evangelist has hammered the sinfulness in a life or that one must be willing to confess Christ publicly, etc. Rarrely have I heard a clear Gospel mesage of belief in Christ alone as Savior. I am thankful that we have heard it & believe now!
    Bro. Brian,
    Rose is right! You are a Brain! Thank you brother for your encouragement. You certainly have a gift for it & boy is it needed! God Bless you.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Wednesday, October 24, 2007 6:09:00 PM  

  • gosh, I called Brian "Brain" again!
    It must be another one of those I-can't-type-it-right words! Like frined, I mean friend.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:35:00 AM  

  • No, just a Freudian slip! : )

    Actually, I wouldn't doubt that ol' Sig wore one from time to time!

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:47:00 PM  

  • By the way, what do y'all think about that quote at the end of the OP: "what are we depending on for our salvation, Christ or our memory?" If I am depending on Christ alone for my eternal salvation, am I saved? I know the answer to this question, I just want to hear some fine theologgin' from y'all!

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at Saturday, October 27, 2007 5:55:00 PM  

  • David,
    I think depending on Christ alone is what He wants from us. That is called faith.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:12:00 AM  

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