Unashamed of Grace

Tuesday, September 18, 2007

Do you agree with this Quotation? XVII

by David Bebbington

The publication of the minutes of the 1770 Methodist Conference, referring to good works as a 'condition' of salvation, provoked an outcry from Calvinists such as Rowland Hill and Augustus Toplady. Wesley seemed to be rejecting no less a doctrine than justification by faith. In reality he did not. Good works, according to Wesley, were not the way to justification, but were essential to final salvation. So the 'Calvinistic Controversy' of the 1770s that drove Methodism further apart from other Evangelicals was based in part on a misunderstanding.

(D.W. Bebbington, Evangelicalism in Modern Britain, p.28)

Just a misunderstanding or a fundamental denial of grace?

13 Comments:

Great quote!

I vote for "fundamental denial of grace." While Wesley does argue that works were not for justification, by saying that works were for final salvation, he is arguing that works are necessary for glorification and entrance into the eternal state. Therefore, for Wesley, no works = no heaven.

Here are a few links which might help:

Are Works the Necessary Result of Justification?

The Gospel Under Siege

By Jeremy Myers, at Tuesday, September 18, 2007 7:23:00 AM
Thanks for your thoughts, Jeremy.

By Matthew Celestine, at Tuesday, September 18, 2007 7:38:00 AM
That is really interesting. It all sounds so ... familiar.

By Rose~, at Tuesday, September 18, 2007 8:06:00 AM
Yeah. Deja vu!

By Matthew Celestine, at Tuesday, September 18, 2007 8:28:00 AM
Yesterday I posted comments about the present list of candidates and their beliefs. I was challenged by a hard core Methodist.

I commented with a direct quote from John Wesley the father of Methodism, who said, “that without the perseverance of good works, one may ‘fall and … finally… perish forever,"
http://expreacherman.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/what-is-your-candidates-religious-belief/

Interesting comments.

In Christ eternally,

ExP(Jack)

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, September 18, 2007 12:52:00 PM
Hey Matthew,

The interesting thing is that the John Piper has verbatim said the same exact thing, but the Calvinists do not have a problem with his assertions!

"Nevertheless, we must also own up to the fact that our final salvation is made contingent upon the subsequent obedience which comes from faith."

John Piper: What we believe about the 5 pts of Calvinism...

Taken from the same page: "Obedience... is necessary for final salvation."

This article is an interesting piece by a Reformed author, John Robbins, who takes John Piper to task for works salvation:

The Pied Piper

Antonio

By Antonio, at Tuesday, September 18, 2007 1:33:00 PM
Here's some more from Piper:

Brother's, We are Not Professionals

By Jeremy Myers, at Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:23:00 PM
ExP and Antonio, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

By Matthew Celestine, at Wednesday, September 19, 2007 12:37:00 AM
Fundamental denial of grace!

If we picture justification as a ticket to heaven, I can't see how we can require works to ensure final glorification without denying the reality of the ticket!

God bless,
Andrew.

By Andrew McNeill, at Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:54:00 AM
Absolutely, Andrew.

By Matthew Celestine, at Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:58:00 AM
Faith and faithfulness may be separate but they are not separated. Where there is no faithfulness there is no faith and where there is no faith there is no salvation.

By jared, at Wednesday, September 19, 2007 7:07:00 AM
Jared, what makes you think that?

By Matthew Celestine, at Wednesday, September 19, 2007 7:11:00 AM
dyspraxic fundamentalist,

Many would attribute it to my (pre)committment to covenant theology, but I like to think it's because of how the concept of faith is developed throughout Scripture beginning with Abraham.

By jared, at Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:29:00 AM