[We are] not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Wednesday, September 12, 2007

What Do You Make of This Passage? (Entry #2)

by Rose

2 Corinthians:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
It seems like this is teaching that, like Isaiah 53:6, the Suffering Servant took on all the sins (all we like sheep have gone astray ... and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all) so that they would not be counted against anyone. Before jumping to any conlcusion, please know I am not a universalist ... but what to do with this verse?

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16 Comments:

  • Rose, look at 2 Cor.5, beginning at verse 15...
    "And He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again...

    See the open door here? The word "THAT" is key. Only those who believe realize the benefit of His death.

    Again, verse 17, anyone in Christ is a new creation... "In Christ" is key.

    Verse 18, we have a message of reconciliation to proclaim, a message to the world that it is God's desire that man be reconciled to Him. Christ's sacrifice has supplied the way of reconciliation. As far as verse 19 is concerned, as in verses 15 and 17 before, only those in Christ realize the benefit.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:35:00 AM  

  • Hi Rose,

    Forgive me for jumping in at the deep end and splashing everyone.
    I have looked at this passage and see the following:

    1) A Definite Relationship: God was in Christ
    2) A Definite Work: Reconciling unto Himself
    3) A Definite People: the World
    4) A definite result: not imputing their trespasses etc.,

    We must ask ourselves these questions:

    1) Does a man suffering in hell have his sins imputed to him?
    2) If not…what is he suffering in hell for?
    3) Can such a man say that He was reconciled to God in the work of Christ?
    4) If so, why is he suffering in hell?
    5) Do we need to reduce the definiteness of this work to mere possibility to make it fit a doctrinal view?

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:51:00 AM  

  • Rose, we must be careful that our system doesn't wipe out entire verses...

    Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light.

    Romans 2:16 - in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

    Matthew 12:37 - For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:06:00 AM  

  • Mark,
    Rose, we must be careful that our system doesn't wipe out entire verses...

    I was thinking the same thing!!

    be back to this later - gotta work.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:58:00 AM  

  • Rose, there is a difference between wiping out verses and allowing one verse to show us how to interpret another.

    Gotta get ready for work now. See ya tomorrow.

    Have a good day.
    Mark

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:25:00 AM  

  • Good morning Rose.

    While you are looking at Isaiah 53:6, may I for a moment direct our thoughts to the last line of verse 5..."And by His stripes we are healed"... Is this not all of one thought with verse 6? It states that we *are* healed. Many a commentator believe that what we are healed of here is our rebelion against God. Note that it says that we ARE healed. Henry points us to the the fact that Christ's stripes purchased for us the Spirit and grace of God to mortify corruptions, the distempers of our souls, putting us in a good state of health. We are now fit to serve God... A finished work!

    Is that true of the world, or is this an experience for the believer only? This verse must be considered with verse 6 as well.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:58:00 AM  

  • Colin Maxwell,
    Do we need to reduce the definiteness of this work to mere possibility to make it fit a doctrinal view?

    What "possibility" are you referring to?


    Mark,
    Yes, yes, I agree - :~) only those who believe receive the life - the gift that He is able to deliver. We must be "in Christ" to not perish - which persihing is the result of our sin. I think there is a difference between suffering pusihment for sin and dying as a result of sin. One is penal, the other is consequential. Christ took the penalty, but the consequence is still there, unless we be lifted fron that death by the giver of life who now holds all the cards, having been raised from death and having conquered it. He has healing in his wings - healing for His people Israel and healing for all those who would receive the life that He offers. It makes me want to jump up and down, hallelujah.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, September 13, 2007 7:58:00 AM  

  • An awesome passage - my favorite in the Bible:

    3 He is despised and rejected by men,
    A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
    And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
    He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
    4 Surely He has borne our griefs
    And carried our sorrows;
    Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
    Smitten by God, and afflicted.
    5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
    We have turned, every one, to his own way;
    And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
    Yet He opened not His mouth;
    He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
    And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    So He opened not His mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
    And who will declare His generation?
    For He was cut off from the land of the living;
    For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
    9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
    But with the rich at His death,
    Because He had done no violence,
    Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
    He has put Him to grief.
    When You make His soul an offering for sin,
    He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
    And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
    11 He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied.
    By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
    For He shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
    And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
    Because He poured out His soul unto death,
    And He was numbered with the transgressors,
    And He bore the sin of many,
    And made intercession for the transgressors.


    Healing would seem to be healing what the passage mention:

    our griefs
    our sorrows
    our transgressions
    our iniquities


    Healing us by taking on:
    the chastisement for our peace

    Purchasing our:
    righteous justification

    Again, Isaiah mentions our:
    iniquities
    death
    sin
    transgression


    This is how we are healed. We are healed from the consequence of sin - separation from God which has resulted in lifelessness or death.

    I see that passage as about *all* Israel, but applicable to *all* people. We gentiles benefit from that which Israel's Messiah has accomlished for Israel. How awesome - someday *they* will look upon Him whom they have pierced and they will mourn over having spent all these years in rejection:

    Zechariah 12:9-11:
    9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.


    We in the church are blessed to by this that He has done! Praise the LORD, Mark.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:21:00 AM  

  • Rose says, "I think there is a difference between suffering pusihment for sin and dying as a result of sin. One is penal, the other is consequential. Christ took the penalty, but the consequence is still there,..."

    So have you parted ways with McGee and his view of Revelation 20:12-13, found on page 1060 in Volume 5 of his Commentary of the Bible? I just want to be clear here. If so then you and I have reached an impasse, and I would then conclude that we are thinking in completely different categories; and never the twain shall meet.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:28:00 AM  

  • Isaiah 53 is spoken as an accomplished fact; not one of mere possibility. It is in the form of a confession, utered by those who have received its benefits already.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:39:00 AM  

  • Mark,
    I just read that! (I really do need to do some work today!) No, I don't think I have parted ways with what he is saying there [although I don't agree with *all* of what McGee says, mostly though, or some of every kind ;~)].

    He quotes John 5:40 where Jesus says that they will not come to Him that they might have life. These folks do not have life. They will be judged according to their works, I will not deny this - the Bible clearly sates it. The reason they perish, though, and this is clearly stated - is because they are
    not.
    in the.
    Book.
    of Life.
    But everything that is secret will be revealed and everyone will know everything about everyone that is not in Christ. All the books will be open.


    "Are healed" - isn't that the present tense?

    Mark, I noticed something really interesting about Isaiah 53. It is mostly spoken in the PAST tense until you get to this verse:

    When You make His soul an offering for sin,
    He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
    And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.


    After that verse, he speaks in a FUTURE tense "He will..." etc. Check it out.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:48:00 AM  

  • I direct you to a place in the New Testament where we see Isaiah 53 fulfilled, and where I see that healing mentioned therein is spiritual... 1 Peter 2:24-25 - 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

    By Blogger mark pierson, at Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:57:00 AM  

  • Mark,
    Excellent reference. Thank you. I agree - the healing is spiritual for us. I think Peter is talking to one aspect of that great healing.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:50:00 AM  

  • Good morning Rose!

    You ask in relation to my last post
    What "possibility" are you referring to?

    My outline spoke of 4 definite things, including a definite work at the Cross i.e. where Christ actually reconciled a definite group of people to Himself i.e. the world.

    My argument would be that these people are actually reconciled to God and therefore (according to the text) their trepasses are not imputed to them i.e. they are no longer candidates for hell and will never be there. Of course, we know that they are children of wrath even as others until they are justified by faith, but nevertheless this faith will flow on from the definite intention of the work at the Cross.

    As you say, Rose, Evangelicals are not Universalists. We do not believe that every son and daughter of Adam is thus reconciled and their sins not imputed to them. Whatever others may say, men do go to hell for their sins - their adulteries and murders etc., (Colossians 3:5-6)- and so these sins are imputed to them.

    This leaves us either viewing the designation "world" in an accepted way that is less than everyone ever born, or reducing the definiteness of the work that Christ wrought. Albert Barnes goes for the latter and reduces it all to God "...graciously provided a plan of pardon, and offered to remit their sins on the conditions of the gospel." Thus a definite work is reduced to being merely a plan and an offer. This as not the intention of Paul as he wrote.

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Friday, September 14, 2007 3:26:00 AM  

  • Hello Goodnight,
    This leaves us either viewing the designation "world" in an accepted way that is less than everyone ever born, or reducing the definiteness of the work that Christ wrought.

    You call it reducing the definiteness; I call it recognizing the vast love of Christ and the awesome sacrifice as He became sin.

    You can't see any contingency of faith? Everything must be set in stone or else we infringe upon God's sovereignty? And to hold fast to this, we must do away with things like the word "world" and "all" and reduce the volume of Christ's sacrifice? Are you sure this is where you want to be on these issues?

    One more thought to ponder: Christ is Lord of ALL. If He did not take on the sins of the world, then how can He be Lord of all?

    If we limit the "atonement" (I don't really like that word, because He didn't cover the sn, he paid for and removed it) then we limit Christ's Lordship. It is a slippery slope.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Saturday, September 15, 2007 4:44:00 AM  

  • Rose,

    Any look at a concordance will show that the words "all" and "World" are not necessarily "each and everyone without exception."

    Is the whole world (your wider definition on this one)actually reconciled to God and is it's sin definitely not imputed? The sin of the Pharisees was said to "remain" and therefore must be imputed (John 9:41)Are the Pharisees part of the world in 2 Corinthians 5:19? If they died in their sin, I would say not.


    Surely Christ is "Lord of all" on the basis of His deity?

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:04:00 PM  

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