[We are] not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Saturday, July 26, 2008

Do you agree with this Quotation XXIV

by Matthew

Some years ago, I read about a black teenager who was tired of racist abuse and so wrote on his bedroom wall:

I'm me and I'm fine, cos God don't make junk.

Is this true? And if it is true that God don't make junk, are there any implications for the doctrine of election?


  • Well, if God made certain individuals for only one purpose: to 'glorify Himself' by burning in hell - by no choice of their own - but by the purpose of His decree to leave them in damnation, then it is impossible to escape this conclusion:
    He did make them to be refuse.

    I think this idea destroys the basis for understanding human worth and the value of individuals.
    No one can know if they are God's cherished child... or if they are the junk.

    By Blogger Rose~, at Saturday, July 26, 2008 6:57:00 AM  

  • I think you are right.

    But maybe the Calvinists will accuse us of pandering to the false gospel of human worth and self-esteem...

    By Blogger Celestial Fundie, at Saturday, July 26, 2008 7:01:00 AM  

  • I would give a hearty amen to sister Rose!!!
    And I would include that this young man gives more credit to Gods character then Calvinist do!!!

    The Scripture tells us that God is a God of peace (1 Thess 5:23) and that He made peace through the cross (Col 1:19) in fact the gospel is called a gospel of peace (Eph 6:14) and a multitude of heavenly host proclaimed “Peace and good will toward all men”(Luke 2:14).

    But the Calvinist make God out to be a god who has declared war on the majority of the human race simply for his good pleasure!

    What a contrast between the god of Calvinism and the God the young black youth relates too!


    By Blogger alvin, at Saturday, July 26, 2008 7:12:00 PM  

  • Alvin, I think I agree with you.

    By Blogger Celestial Fundie, at Sunday, July 27, 2008 7:32:00 AM  

  • Hi y'all,

    I'm one of those terrible Calvinists whose god is so vicious (notice I spelled it with a small g not to confuse it with the loving God :o).

    There are various brands of Calvinists. There are the "supralapsarian" Calvinists who view God's decrees are logically ordered that God damns people without any regard to them, even logically prior to considering Christ's death. Then Christ's death is made subordinate to the prior decree. Its a rather hellish form of Calvinism.

    There is another brand of Calvinism, "infralapsarianism" Calvinism. In this view, God has decreed all of humanity falls, then God decreed the death of Christ to redeem a remnant.

    Historically, Calvinists have argued those two different positions, even going so far as declaring their opponents demeaning God's glory and they are going to hell -- just over the issue of lapsarianism. Calvinists can be such wonderful people, just makes you want to go hug one, doesn't it?

    Herman Bavinck (1854 - 1924), the Dutch Calvinist, was pretty disgusted with such bickering within the Calvinists. He said that such bickering showed a lack of understanding of God by all sides. There are things about God, that if we analyze his omniscience, his timelessness, his omnipotence, there will be things that will look pretty strange. Human language will only approximate what this God is like. If we focus on one aspect of God, say a particular ordering of God's decrees, which can be logically ordered in a particular way, without recognizing that it can be just as logically ordered in other ways, we will end up with a god who is unlike scripture.

    I am sorry you all have come across Calvinists who abuse God so much. God has created man in his image, but so many Calvinists have returned the favor and created god in their image. A pretty ugly god at that.

    I could say that all Christians share in that tendency too -- but I won't (I know, I just did :o). Where I have offended any of you by my distortions of God (and it is guaranteed that I have done that because of don't have a perfect view of God and I am sinful), I ask for your forgiveness -- and even more from God.

    There are some profound mysteries about God. I think each of you could list some things about God that would look rather peculiar to non-Christians -- and if you really look closely, you find things that you know about God that you don't understand and can't fashion a completely coherent explanation. Us Calvinists tend to be a proud sort and often over explain God where we get things wrong and refuse to recognize where we are wrong. Pride and stupidity -- I know this about Calvinists because I see it first and foremost in me. Forgive me when I do that. But God's love is so great that Christ's death atones for even my horrible sins. Now that is a loving God!

    By Blogger Earl, at Sunday, July 27, 2008 5:33:00 PM  

  • My apologies for this extra note, I want to click the follow-up comments, so I am doing it now.

    By Blogger Earl, at Sunday, July 27, 2008 5:41:00 PM  

  • Earl, thanks for the comment.

    It would seem that on both the Supralapsarian and Infralapsarian views God has chosen to pass over some people and decided not to grant them the benefit of salvation.

    How would you defend your own form of Calvinism against the allegation that it entails God 'making junk'?

    By Blogger Celestial Fundie, at Monday, July 28, 2008 1:32:00 AM  

  • Matthew,

    How I'd approach it is in steps. First, I'd state some premises tht are foundational:

    (1) God is good by his nature.
    (2) A good God does not do bad things (traditionally, confessions state that God is not the author of evil).
    (3) Every creature is created in the image of God -- and that image means that person is not junk.

    Now, this is where I need feedback from you all on where you'd see some problems. That's where I'd take the discussion next. If I try to anticipate, I usually get it wrong what others concerns are.

    By Blogger Earl, at Monday, July 28, 2008 4:20:00 PM  

  • Earl, thanks for that.

    I think it is perhaps difficult for those of us who are not Calvinists to see how a being created in the image of God could be deliberately destined by its creator (even indirectly if predestination is only single) to go to the lake of fire.

    By Blogger Celestial Fundie, at Tuesday, July 29, 2008 1:20:00 AM  

  • Matthew,

    Where I take the discussion is note that all Christians who believe in an omniscient and all powerful God have a similar problem that a Calvinist has. Before the foundation of the world, God knew the destination of all people. God being all powerful could have arranged that people going to hell would have been saved. In that sense, God ordained these people to hell. Usually, non-Calvinists state that God was constrained for various reasons, such as free will of individuals. A Calvinist will also say that God is constrained for good reasons that flow out of God's good and logical nature -- and that we don't know the reasons of God's arrangements of why he didn't do otherwise. Calvin said you should not go further in speculating. Unfortunately many Calvinists go further -- who should instead recognize their ignorance on the issue and keep their trap shut.

    By Blogger Earl, at Tuesday, July 29, 2008 5:47:00 PM  

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