Unashamed of Grace

Friday, December 14, 2007

A couple of odd quotations

by Rose

I was looking around and found this disturbing bit of doctrine:

... the saints will & must persevere in the obedience which comes from faith. Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ *can be lost* in the end.

Obedience, evidencing inner renewal from God, is *necessary* for final salvation.

There is a fight of faith to be fought. We must endure to the end in faith *if* we are to be saved.

I think it sort of begs the question as to whether one is saved in any sense at all upon faith in Christ. This person seems to speak as if salvation is all a future thing. It also sounds like they suppose salvation can be lost - based upon the first quote. What do you think? Does this sound like a seasoned theologian? Does it sound like a newbie in the Calvinist doctrine or someone who has really made sense of his doctrine?

15 Comments:

"Election is unconditional, but glorification is not." ???

Does this mean, someone who is unconditionally elect may not become glorified?
What a confusing idea.

Are these quotes in the context of a contrast? IOW, is whoever said these things saying what is not true? Is it said with sarcasm? Is this a person who does not understand Calvinistic doctrine, but wishes he did? A new Christian? Someone who is mocking Calvinists?

Who? What? Why?

By J. Wendell, at Friday, December 14, 2007 4:55:00 AM
It does sound a bit rotten.

I think the FG model of unconditional eternal security, but conditional inheritance makes much more sense.

God Bless

Matthew

By Matthew Celestine, at Friday, December 14, 2007 5:01:00 AM
Hi Rose
It sounds like a Calvinist that has really figured out Calvinism.
"I don't konw if I'm going to heaven and give me five minutes and you cannot know to!"

blessings alvin

By alvin, at Friday, December 14, 2007 6:14:00 AM
Rose, that is one reason I don't really likes quotes. You just cannot get a better explanation than simply using the scriptures to prove your doctrine.

But like John said, it is a confusing idea.

By Jim, at Friday, December 14, 2007 7:55:00 AM
Hi Rose
I’m afraid a lot Calvinist are going to be greatly disappointed at the end of their race. Here is kinda of an analogy I think that fits. I ran my first race when I was in my early thirties and I did pretty good, I think I took second in my age group. Which was a lot better then I thought I would do, I just didn’t want to come in last.
I saw what the winner was given, it was a real nice trophy. I had never won a trophy in my life. So all through that next winter I worked really hard, rain or shine I was running. Then it came time for the big race, I felt I had prepared myself well. I ended up winning the whole race. And then when it was time to get presented the trophy, they gave me a ten-dollar bill. I was very disappointed, all that work for a lousy ten-dollar bill.
The Calvinist is told he will persevere unto the end IF he is truly saved. What he doesn’t realize is that he has bought into a works salvation that can’t save anyone. His works are a condition because he has to endure to the end to be saved. But he doesn’t know until the end whether he will persevere because there is such a thing as a spurious faith. Which can even fool the ones who have it into thinking they have the real thing. Just like myself you don’t get the trophy till you cross the finish line, and then I didn’t get what I thought I was going to get.
I only see the Calvinist whom at some time or another that believed in Jesus promise of eternal life alone without the need for perseverance in good works as making it to heaven. All the ones who believed they had to persevere in good works to be saved are going to be greatly disappointed and it will have been to late to change course. But if you’re a Calvinist and your reading this it isn’t too late to change course. One can simply take Jesus for His word and KNOW he has eternal life that can NEVER be lost. (John 3:16;4:10;5:24;11:25-27;1 John 5:13)
What the Calvinist has bought into is a free gift that cost everything. They have made running the race for the prize a condition for the free gift. That’s why they cant KNOW until they get to the finish line whether they got the real thing or just a ten-dollar bill.

Blessings alvin

By alvin, at Friday, December 14, 2007 9:39:00 AM
John,
I will give the larger context at a later date. I forgot to say in my post that this person says that salvation is all of grace through faith, but I don't understand how they can then make these statements.

Hi Matthew,
I know you do. :~)

Alvin,
Like I said to John, this person says salvation is all of grace through faith, but such convolution must be done to reconcile that idea with these staements... it is silly. I like your analogy. I would not like to get a ten dollar bill after all that work.

Hi Jim,
Right, I don't learn much from quotes either. I do like pointing out weird ones because they make people aware of some of the problems and unbiblical nature of popular teaching.

By Rose~, at Friday, December 14, 2007 10:29:00 AM
Hi Rose. Hi everyone.

I know exactly where these quotes come from, but I will not reveal who it is. Let us just say that his brand of Calvinism goes beyond MacArthur, the Westminster Catechism, or perhaps even Calvin himself.

Even if this pastor does believe in all five points of Calvinism (the TULIP), this statement is the logical outcome of the P. Only the ones who persevere in holiness are the true believers, because God has given them real faith. The flakers are the false ones, according to them.

I tried reading one of this minister's books, but I never got around to finish it. I threw it away.

By Anonymous, at Friday, December 14, 2007 11:30:00 AM
What is the end to what we must endure in order to be saved?

Our last breath? What exactly is the enduring we do?

"There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ *can be lost* in the end."

um, I didn't know this, I thought no one can pluck us out of His hand.
So this "form" of salvation has the person doing something to keep something they will never know they have until this mysterious time called "the end".

Please help,
Confused on the fifth floor

By Kris, at Sunday, December 16, 2007 5:21:00 PM
Kris,
You aren't read ing the same version as the one who made those ridiculas comments.

Who is it Rose?

By J. Wendell, at Monday, December 17, 2007 3:05:00 AM
Hi Rose

Hi Chris

What is the end to what we must endure in order to be saved?

The end of our life or the rapture. And the saving is the saving of our life. At the end of our life it is possible for the believer to not be saved in the sense of the saving of his life. All could be wood, hey, and stubble. A believer can lose his life in this sense but will still go to heaven because eternal life is a gift.

Our last breath? What exactly is the enduring we do?

"There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ *can be lost* in the end."

Many scriptures are taken out of context. When they are talking about rewards not eternal life that cannot be lost.
Here is one scripture that gets taken out of context.
Matt 24:13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

The saving this verse is talking about is the saving of the life. Then end spoken of here is the end of the tribulation. The believer who endures to the end will have saved their life to go into the Millinnium in their physical body.

um, I didn't know this, I thought no one can pluck us out of His hand.
So this "form" of salvation has the person doing something to keep something they will never know they have until this mysterious time called "the end".

No one can pluck a believer out of Gods hand. Jesus said: This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that ALL He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. John 6:39
2 Tim 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
Kris a justified believer that has been born again is saved in the sense from hell to heaven, but can be spoken of as yet to be saved.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we SHALL BE SAVED by His life.
Kris this is a justified believer Rom 5:1 who is not yet saved. He has been saved from the penalty of sin but not,yet from the power of sin. Were saved from the power of sin by confessing Christ and calling on the name of the Lord Rom 10:9,13 this is the walk of faith.
Notice also the differences of the word save. In John's Gospel saved can simple mean believing in Jesus for eternal life (John 3:16,17;5:34;10:9) but then in Mark 16:16 Saved can mean not only eternal life but the saving of the life that discipleship brings.
Mark 16:16 Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Kris notice the emphasis is on believing. The one who does not believe is the one who is condemned. A believer is saved but not saved in the sense of this verse unless he is baptized.
hope this helps, and gets you off of the elevater they can be pretty boring,,,lol
blessings alvin

By alvin, at Monday, December 17, 2007 9:15:00 AM
I can hardly wait. :)

By Trent, at Monday, December 17, 2007 12:32:00 PM
How did you know J. Wendell :)...it's kinda hard to breathe when I am 'holding fast' and self inspecting my ability to endure while at the same time introspecting my motives looking for evidence of inner renewal. :(

Hello Alvin, I understand what you are saying. But the quote says:

"There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ *can be lost* in the END."

Does whoever wrote this mean what you are talking about or the end of physical consious life and finding oneself in the fire? These statements also say we MUST endure to the *END*(that magical word again) to be SAVED.

What did Christ mean when He said it is finished if we still have to fight, endure, etc. to the END(whatever that is) in order to make it to heaven?

Also, Alvin, you stated a verse in Matthew. I was thinking, if at the time I had to decide to endure to the end to save my life on earth but I had just inspected(30 minutes before) the 'fruit' in my life up to that point and found in it 'evidence' enough to prove my salvation, why would I want to endure to save my life on earth at this point only to take a chance later in life that I might not 'hold fast to Christ' and be lost in the END(that word again) and find myself in the fire?

No wonder I need to be on the fifth floor!

By Kris, at Monday, December 17, 2007 2:09:00 PM
Hi Rose

Hi Kris

What did Christ mean when He said it is finished if we still have to fight, endure, etc. to the END(whatever that is) in order to make it to heaven?

Enduring to the end has nothing to do with going to heaven. Enduring to the end only has to do with overcoming which results in rewards. The first-born inheritance. Every believer is an overcomer ( 1 John 5:4,5) but not ever believer is an overcomer in the sense of Rev 1:7 which has to do with rewards.

Does whoever wrote this mean what you are talking about or the end of physical conscious life and finding oneself in the fire? These statements also say we MUST endure to the *END*(that magical word again) to be SAVED.

The one who wrote this believes in a works-salvation to get to heaven. Which is a false gospel. Anytime you add works as a condition for getting into heaven it's no longer by grace.

What did Christ mean when He said it is finished if we still have to fight, endure, etc. to the END(whatever that is) in order to make it to heaven?

We don’t have to fight and endure to make it to heaven. But if we want to gain our life by losing our life for Christ then we will have great reward when we get to heaven. When Jesus said it was finished the work of redemption was complete. He is the Just and the Justifier of the one who believes. The believer has a perfect position in Christ and God sees every believer complete in Christ.

Also, Alvin, you stated a verse in Matthew. I was thinking, if at the time I had to decide to endure to the end to save my life on earth but I had just inspected(30 minutes before) the 'fruit' in my life up to that point and found in it 'evidence' enough to prove my salvation, why would I want to endure to save my life on earth at this point only to take a chance later in life that I might not 'hold fast to Christ' and be lost in the END(that word again) and find myself in the fire?

Kris looking at your fruit can never prove your salvation because our fruit is not perfect, were still in this sinful body and we all do not walk in the Spirit all the time or we would be perfect. The ONLY evidence necessary is that we have believed Jesus promise of eternal life. For He has said the one who believes will not perish and has eternal life. Assurance is of the essence of saving faith. Which means if you believe Jesus in a verse like John 3:16, what do you have? If you answer I don’t know! Then you have not believed Jesus promise. But if you say “I have eternal life!” Then you also know you will never perish!!!
Holding fast to Christ is the walk of faith and when we walk by faith our life will produce fruit for eternity. But the walk of faith is NOT a condition for getting into heaven or it would be by works. Simply believing Jesus promise of eternal life gets into heaven.

John 5:24 guarantees the believers past present and future!

Jesus said: “ Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but HAS passed from death into life. John 5:24

Kris to believe the Father is to believe the Son. At the moment one believes in Jesus for eternal life they have passed from death into life. And at the present they have eternal life. And in the future they will never come into a judgement that will determine whether they go to hell or heaven. Only the unbeliever will be judged at the Great White Throne of judgement. Whenever the Bible speaks of the believers judgement it’s called the “BEMA” which is a judgment of the believer’s rewards. The unbeliever’s judgment is called the (krisis) Bob Wilkins stated the Krisis is a crisis because the outcome is hell. Whereas the believer’s judgment the worst to happen is all your works are burned up but yet are saved as by fire. You can read about it in 1 Cor 3:11-15 note the foundation is Christ so the believer is eternally secure.
Blessings alvin

By alvin, at Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:34:00 AM
Thanks Alvin, I understand what you are saying. I guess my comments are on the sarcastic side.

Are there any persons out there that agree with these quotations?

Also I agree with j. wendell, how can God unconditionally elect and at the same time not guarantee glorification?

Come to think of it I'm not sure what glorification actually is.

Also I still for the life of me cannot figure out what the people mean by *the end*. If someone agrees with these quotes and understands them can you tell me what is involved in determining *the end*?

By Kris, at Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:43:00 PM
Hi Rose/Kris

Since these quotes start out with perseverance, I take it as speaking of the Calvinistic doctrine of “Perseverance of the Saints.” So it would be speaking of the end being the end of ones life. Here is the definition of the P in TULIP.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

And why I went to Matthew 24 is because I believe that is one of their main proofs that a believer has to endure to the end to be saved. Let’s look at that chapter.

In Matt 24:3 Jesus sitting on the Mount of Olives when His disciples come to Him and ask Him three question. These questions stem from the fact that earlier Jesus had Prophetied the destruction of the temple that would happen in AD 70. This location that Jesus is sitting at couldn’t be any more appropriate for this discussion to have taken place, because Jesus is talking about His second coming. And that is the spot where when He comes back He will be standing as the following verse shows:

Zechariah 14:4
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Makinga very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Getting back to Matthew 24:3 Jesus disciples ask Jesus three questions. 1. Tell us when will these things be? This question was concerning the destruction of the temple Jesus talked about in verse 1,2.
Questions 2 and 3 are together. And what will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?
Jesus answers the last question first, that is the one we want to look at because in verse 13 we are told that the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved. Jesus is speaking about the “end of the age” all the way from verse 4 till verse 22. We see again in verse 6 “but the end is not yet.” What end is He speaking about? The end of the age. Then in verse 13 Jesus says “But he who endures to the end will be saved.” The end of what? The end of the age that He has been talking about all through this section. We see in verse 22 that’ “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved but for the elects sake those days will be shortened. Kris verse 13 is speaking about the saving of the physical life. They will be saved to go into the Millennial Kingdom in their human bodies and will be able to have children and populate the Kingdom.
I hope this shed a little light for you.
Blessings alvin

By alvin, at Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:23:00 PM