Unashamed of Grace

Friday, August 17, 2007

Quote to Ponder

by Rose

If the church is God's redeemed people of all ages, then the church must have begun with Adam, though most covenant writers are reluctant to say that. They usually begin the church with Abraham in order to found it on the Abrahamic covenant, link it to the olive tree of Romans 11, preserve the idea of a group fellowship, and be able to use the label "Israel" for the church The church in the New Testament is the "new Israel", and the church in the Old Testament is Israel. But before Abraham, what was the church?

~Charles Ryrie, 'Dispensationalism' (Revised and Expanded)

18 Comments:

Hi Rose,

If being covered by the bloodsoaked skin of the slain animal (probably a lamb) denoted Adam's salvation, then I have no probelm with the idea that the church statred in the Garden of Eden. I notice that Hebrews 11 starts though with Abel, but still...long before Abraham.

By Colin Maxwell, at Friday, August 17, 2007 10:41:00 AM
So Hebrews 11 is all about the bride of Christ?

By Rose~, at Friday, August 17, 2007 12:11:00 PM
The Abrahamic covenant was an extension of the promises God made to Adam and Eve about Christ.

Since the fall, faith acceptable to God has been based in His promises concerning Christ.

Just as we class God's further promises to Isaac, Jacob, and David as a continuation of his promises to Abraham, those promises were part of God's unfolding promises about Christ.

By burndive, at Friday, August 17, 2007 12:40:00 PM
Hi Rose,
The church is not Israel and Israel isn't the church. The church began at Pentecost. Jesus said upon this rock I will build my church (future tense). The church is baptised believers into Christ. They are the body of Christ. We are partakers of the New Covenant, but the New Covenant is Israel's New Covenant. Old Testament believers are Gods wife, but the church is Jesus's bride.
blessings alvin

By Anonymous, at Friday, August 17, 2007 1:08:00 PM
Hi Tim,
Thanks for the remarks.
I think the question is "how will Christ fulfill those promises made to Abraham?" IOW, we see what He is doing for the church and I am aware that by faith we are seeds of Abraham in a spiritual sense, but the Abrahamic Covenant contains promises that are specific and actually regard land - very detailed - the borders of the land are spelled out - so Christ is going to fulfill those promises specifically - just as it is written - isn't He? Are those promises to me too? Were those promises for Adam?

On another note - I think the point Ryrie is making is that there is no basis for saying that Adam was part of Israel, the so-called 'new Israel' or the Church. (God never promised Adam any specific portion of land.)
It makes it kind of difficult to do away with the distinctions in these groups, and the significance of the promises made to the physical descendants of Abraham about their land.

I do agree with Colin ... that Adam was saved because of Christ's sacrifice, pictured by the skins.

By Rose~, at Friday, August 17, 2007 1:22:00 PM
Alvin,
Thanks for your thoughts! I agree. The New Cevenant is a sticky issue, though. I haven't gotten that one all figured out yet. ;~)

By Rose~, at Friday, August 17, 2007 1:24:00 PM
So Hebrews 11 is all about the bride of Christ?

Hi Rose,

Hebrews 11 is all about faith as worked out in the lives of God's people from whatever age. Yes, the OT saints were part of the church and therefore pictured as the Bride of Christ.

By Colin Maxwell, at Friday, August 17, 2007 1:52:00 PM
Colin,
There is a great gulf between you and I. :~)

By Rose~, at Friday, August 17, 2007 2:01:00 PM
Rose,

I assume that you're talking about 3,000 miles of ocean?

:-)

By Colin Maxwell, at Saturday, August 18, 2007 1:04:00 AM
Hi Rose, I'm a little rusty on this subject myself. So it's good to go back and look at some of my previous notes, if I can find them :)
In contrast to Israel, who is the unfaithful wife of Jehoveh (spoken of as an adulteress, the church is pictured in the New Testament as the virgin bride awaiting the coming of her Bridegroom (2 Cor 11:2).
I like these promises to the Nation Israel.
Jeremiah 31:35-36
Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The Lord is His name): "If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a NATION before Me forever."
I believe that when the bride of Christ (Church) is raptured out, then God starts dealing again with the Nation Israel. But this time they will receive their King.
alvin

By Anonymous, at Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:18:00 AM
Rose,

Is John the Baptis who celebrated the bridegroom part of Israel?What about Peter, James and John and the other apostles in whom Jesus defended by saying they were rejoicing in the bridegroom when not fasting? Are they part of the Church or Israel. What about Jews today who get saved? Are they part of Israel or the Church?

By Anonymous, at Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:09:00 PM
Hi Rose,
I believe only those who are baptised into Christ make up the body of Christ the Church. Jesus speaking of the Spirit to His disciples in John 14:17b for He dwells with you and will be in you, also John7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Old Testament saints were not sealed by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit came upon them for different purposes. They were born again by believing in the Messiah, but that is different then the gift of the Holy Spirit that was only given at Pentecost. The disciples were not part of the Church until Pentecost when they were baptised in Christ by the Spirit. Old Testament sanits like John the baptist were never baptised into Christ by the Spirit. They were the friend of the Bridegroom but not the Bride...alvin

By Anonymous, at Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:25:00 PM
Alvin,

So then the apostle Paul and other Jewish believers are of the Church and not of Israel?

By Anonymous, at Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:02:00 PM
Hi Rose, concerning those Jews who are saved today by believing in Jesus for eternal life. They are part of the body of Christ the Church where there is neither Jew nor Gentile but Christ is to be all in all. The Jews as a Nation have been put aside until the fullness of the Gentiles (Rom 11:25). I believe when Paul was speaking in Galatians about believing Jews as the Israel of God he was contrasting two groups of people. In Galatians 6:13-18 I believe this is the only time Paul uses the phrase “Israel of God” it is in the context of those Jews who would boast in their circumcision vrs.13. I believe he is contrasting between believing Jews and unbelieving Jews, and reminding them that there is an Israel of God that is a New Creation vrs.14. In Romans 9:6b Paul says: For they are not all Israel who are Israel. In Romans 10:1,2 Paul prays that Israel might be saved, he says that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
So I guess my point is that the only reason Paul uses this term “Israel of God” is to contrast those Jews who have believed in Jesus for eternal life and those Jews who are zealous for good works but are without knowledge (still trusting in circumcision to save them)……alvin

By Anonymous, at Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:47:00 PM
Hi Bhedr, hope that answered your question. I have to hit the sack,,,happy dreams,,,alvin

By Anonymous, at Saturday, August 18, 2007 9:55:00 PM
Hi Brian,
I am still reading Ryrie's book that this quote comes from. I have found it very helpful! He says the same thing as Alvin has just said and honestly, I thought that as well. The "Israel of God" is the Jews as they are supposed to be - responding to their Messiah. This "Israel of God" does not refer to the whole church, but it is part of the church. The church also includes Gentiles. So a Jew today who is Messianic is just a part of the church where there is no Jew or gentile distinction.

John the Baptist would not seem to be a part of "the church" ... "the bride."
"28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease." (John 3)

He had a really unique and awesome place in history!

Hey Brian,
good to see you around.

By Rose~, at Monday, August 20, 2007 5:37:00 AM
Hi Rose,

It will be good to see God unveil it all one day won't it? Till then the great mystery of the Bride spoken of Paul in Ephesians will be seen on that ultimate day.
Good thoughts though.

By Bhedr, at Monday, August 20, 2007 6:01:00 PM
Hi Rose and Brian, sorry it took so long for me to get back,,,work,,,
The mystery of the Church was only to be a mystery to the Old Testament people not to the Church as these following verses show.
Eph 3: 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me FOR YOU, 3 how that by revelation He MADE KNOWN to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may UNDERSTAND my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages WAS NOT MADE KNOWN to the sons of men, as it HAS NOW BEEN REVEALED by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make ALL SEE what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages HAS BEEN HIDDEN in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;[b] 10 to the intent THAT NOW the manifold wisdom of God MIGHT BE MADE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,

I thank God for teachers like Zane Hodges that have a broad understanding of scriptures. His latest book “Jesus God’s Prophet” His Teaching About The Coming Surprise, speaking of Jesus. In this book he brakes down the difference between God’s dealing with the Church and dealing with Israel.
It’s amazing to me the different teachers out there (bible answer man) and other organizations (SDA) who claim to have insight into these things but don’t believe the child like promises, such as John 3:16 or the promises to the NATION Israel to inherit the land. This is why I’ve stuck by Zanes teaching because he has the main thing right “it’s really a gift” blessings alvin

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:35:00 PM