Unashamed of Grace

Tuesday, August 14, 2007

What do you think of this SPURGEON quote?

by Rose

"If we had lain in hell forever, yet divine justice would not have been fully justified, for after thousands of years of suffering there would remain still an eternity of debt due to God’s justice. If God had annihilated all the sinners that ever lived, at one stroke, he would not have so honored his justice as he did when he took sin and laid it on his Son, and his Son bore divine wrath which was due to that sin. For now there has been rendered unto divine justice a full equivalent, a complete recompense for all the dishonor which it suffered."

This is a quote from Charles Spurgeon. I just want to if others see in it what I do.

23 Comments:

Rose, that is an awesome quote. Unless I misunderstood him, I agree totally. Praise our wonderful Lord Jesus!!!

By David Wyatt, at Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:01:00 PM
Rose,

Spurgeon's quote seems to fly in the face of some of his writings in defense of Calvinism.

ExP(Jack)

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:13:00 PM
He himself admitted to being an inconsistent Calvinist. As I do:-)

Beautiful words by Him as always. The man had a gift unlike I have ever read. I have to be careful though not to Idolize him as he is a vessel of clay with a dear heart for God.

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, August 14, 2007 5:16:00 PM
Makes sense.

I'll just agree with whatever Antonio says about it.

By Matthew Celestine, at Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:52:00 PM
Hi Rose,

While we would need to see the context of the quote, I think he is pointing us towards the fact that God spared not His own Son. Not that we should suspect God of having double standards, but He certainly has closed the mouths of those who might be tempted to say that He lessened the sufferings which Christ undertook. But He "spared not" and laid on Him the full load of wrath.

Am I right in guessing that you see Unlimited Atonement in the last sentence? If I may send you all scurrying to two pages on this matter when a few years ago I did extensive research for a useful reference tool:

Every reference to Calvinism in his writings (from the Ages CD)

www.corkfpc.com/chscalvinism.html

Spurgeon's views on Particular Redemption:

www.corkfpc.com/chs12atonement.html

By Colin Maxwell, at Wednesday, August 15, 2007 12:49:00 AM
David,
Yes, it is good. I was wondering if I misunderstood also. hahaha

Jack,
Right! I was thinking the same thing.

Brian,
They are beautiful words. It is good to be a little inconsistent here and there. :~)

Matthew,
Thank you! That was so funny to open up the email notification and read that. You started my day with a laugh! I nearly woke up the baby.

By Rose~, at Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:50:00 AM
Colin,
What I saw in the quote was not just in the last sentence, as you say.

First of all, I am not really all that worried what Spurgeon believed ... a little ... but not a whole lot. I think I would be satisfied to view him as an 'inconsistent Calvinist' as Brian said. (And myself as an inconsistent non-Calvinist)

Actually, what I got out of the quote was kind of interesting idea. Sometimes when the subject of unlimited atonement comes up and the Scriptures which seem to me to refer to it, I get a response like this: "Well, if Christ died for all the sins of the world and paid for those, then why would any unsaved person have to die to pay for his own sins? You would have the same sins being suffered for twice. It would be unjust." Right? You have heard (or maybe even employed) that argument before?

Well, it seems that Spurgeon here is saying that those sinners "paying for their own sins" would never satisfy God either. I thought that interesting.

Don't you? If you please?

By Rose~, at Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:04:00 AM
Get on board the Ron Paul Revolution 2008. Plus, he is NOT endorsed by John MacArthur.

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:12:00 AM
Hi Rose,

The sinner never manages to pay the full debt for his sins for a number of reasons:

1) His debt is infinite (seeing he sins against the infinite God)

2) He keeps on sinning even in hell and the debt just accrues and accrues even more and forevermore

3) The Lord Jesus, however, did not suffer forever on the Cross when paying the debt for our sins. This was due to the dignity of His person i.e. the Infinite God manifest in the flesh.

None of the ransomed ever knew
How deep were the waters crossed
Or how dark was the night that the Lord passed through
Ere He found His sheep that was lost

Here's a thought as well. Did Christ die for the sins which the damned in hell keep sinning? The rich man in hell argued with Father Abraham and refused to bow to the Divine will that Lazarus would not be sent to warn his brethren. If Christ died for these sins, was there ever a hope of pardon for them?

BTW: Spurgeon constantly reaffirmed his belief in the 5 points.

By Colin Maxwell, at Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:57:00 AM
Colin,
Hey, you could argue your points with Spurgeon, but he isn't around here anymore. ;~)

Spurgeon constantly reaffirmed his belief in the 5 points.
Good for Spurgeon. :~)

By Rose~, at Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:28:00 AM
"Good for Spurgeon"

And therefore, I presume, good for us all?

:-)

By Colin Maxwell, at Thursday, August 16, 2007 11:41:00 AM
Hi Rose,
I first became acquainted with that argument by reading Spurgeon. And I have used it too. It really does not contradict the other quote. Men are suffering for their sins in hell even if they never will finish paying for them.

--------------
"Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood that seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. To imagine for a moment that He was the Substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the Substitute, afterwards punished he sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of Divine justice. That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities. God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good!"

By Anonymous, at Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:41:00 PM
BTW, The quote in my post is by Spurgeon.

By Anonymous, at Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:43:00 PM
va~susan, you could find that Spurgeon quote in his autobiography, volume one.

And Brian, I've never read where Spurgeon refered to himself as an "inconsistant Calvinist". Sorry, brother.

By mark pierson, at Sunday, August 19, 2007 12:54:00 PM
"My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater." CH Spurgeon,

Swing...badabing. And in case you are not convinced then read what you yourself posted on Wenesday May 3rd 2006 and labeled the man Spurgeon:

'The Inconsistent Calvinist'

" When you bewail the world's iniquity,let not your emotions end in tears; mere weeping will do nothing without action. Get on your feet; ye that have voices and knowledge, go forth and preach the gospel, preach it in every street and lane of this huge city; ye that have wealth, go forth and spend it for the poor,and sick,and needy, and dying,the uneducated,the unenlightened; ye that have time, go forth and occupy it in deeds of goodness; ye that can handle a pen,go forth and write down iniquity--every man to his post,every one of you to your gun in this day of battle; now for God and for His truth; for God and for the right; let every one of us who knows the Lord seek to fight under His banner!" C.H.S

Who are "you" Mark? Thanks for impuning my character just the same brother. Who is misrepresenting who?

Here is the link to where you labeled him the Inconsistent Calvinist:

The horses mouth

By Bhedr, at Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:11:00 PM
BTW for everyone interested. The Spurgeon quote came from the sermon "Salvation By Knowing Truth". I have read lots of Spurgeon Sermons and there are other quotes that convey the same thing.

By Bhedr, at Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:15:00 PM
"And Brian, I've never read where Spurgeon refered to himself as an "inconsistant Calvinist". Sorry, brother."

Brian, read what I said again. SPURGEON never called himself that; I did. I was blowing off steam that day because I saw many an "anti- Calvinism-ist" put forth some unfounded and false views of what Calvinists believe. Spurgeon did not mind disagreeing with what other Calvinist pastors had taught - he even disagreed with Gill, his predecessor at New ParkStreat, saying he was extreme on 1 Tim.2:4 - but to disagree with the doctrine itself, no.

Peace.

By mark pierson, at Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:06:00 AM
bhedr

Having read many of Spurgeon's sermons (as you claim) can you give us a clear quote where he denied each or even any of the five points of Calvinism?

Even your quote on 1 Timothy 2:4 doesn't amount to a denial of Calvinism. It amounts to a denial of the majority Calvinistic interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4 that "all men" means "all kinds of men" rather than "all men without exception." CHS keeps himself within the Calvinistic fold by explaining that the "willingness" of God in the matter is not to the force of a decree, whereas if he ran with the "all kinds of men" interpretation, then doubtless he would have not made that observation. John Trapp (another Calvinist) shares the same interpretation and indeed I (unworthy to lace either of their shoes) tend to as well.

But your quotes should be interesting.

By Colin Maxwell, at Wednesday, August 22, 2007 8:12:00 AM
Oops!

Good morning Rose.

"Forgive us our sins even as we forgive those who trespass against us..." (Penitential prayer)

By Colin Maxwell, at Wednesday, August 22, 2007 8:14:00 AM
Defend TULIP at all costs?

Not me...the only place I make my stand is on Gods sovereignty in that he always initiates and choses us first, but the mystery will ever sleep in how he weeps because Israel would not and that mankind does not. I personally am not willing to go beyond that and that there is clearly a sin unto death for the believer so I have to work around the P with reason that the body does persevere yet some believers sin unto death and that is why Jesus warned one man not to sin again lest something worse come upon him and why we are told as children to keep ourself from Idols. The bottom line is that I see a wise Spurgeon being cautious yet in his heart wanting to somehow reconcile TULIP for the rich heritage of Calvinisms sake.

Crafty guys:-)

Peace Mark. A man who posses grace can say peace as you do:-)

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:47:00 PM
And goodnight? Goodnight brother! Your putting words in my mouth now. I never said he denied Calvinism. Read again what the argument was about.

sigh:-)

By Anonymous, at Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:57:00 PM
Bhedr

I take your point. A bit too fast of the mark of my part. Humble apologies! :-)

P/s I think I misread the quote about CHS urging people to evangelise and wrongly construed this to mean that since he believed in evangelism, he was an inconsistent Calvinist(i.e. as if Calvinists don't believe in evangelism) I thought this posting had died its natural death, but returned to it again and just plunged in, instead of reading the posts fro the very beginning, where you acknowledge yourself to be a Calvinist.

By Colin Maxwell, at Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:06:00 AM
Thanks brother. Happy to accept your apologies. I do not deny Calvinism either. It is the only logical base to start with, but I still have issues and sometimes Calvinists irk me:-)

Sometimes I irk myself:-) Someone once labeled me a free grace Calvinst though. I think and for the most part have always thought that Pastor Erwin Lutzer handles the truth better than anyone out there. He has a gift, but he is much overlooked I think because he is considered to be in the Moody easy believism crowd.

God bless

By Anonymous, at Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:32:00 PM