Unashamed of Grace

Thursday, January 25, 2007

Does Anybody Agree with this Quotation X

by Antonio da Rosa

Antinomianism Or A False Gospel, says Lloyd-Jones

R.T. Kendall states that his predecessor, D. Martin Lloyd-Jones, used to say "If the gospel we preach is not accused of being antinomian, it is probably because we haven't really preached the gospel!" (In Pursuit of HIS Glory, p. 97).

27 Comments:

Good one, Antonio.

My guess is that everyone who's ever had anyone disagree with their gospel presentation agrees with this!

By Anonymous, at Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:22:00 PM
ok, I admit, I had to look up "antinomian" in the dictionary, but now that I know what the word means, I love that quote!!!

By Redeemed, at Thursday, January 25, 2007 7:21:00 PM
Yes, I totally agree with that quotation.

By Matthew Celestine, at Thursday, January 25, 2007 11:55:00 PM
Good quote.... Another good quote from Dr. Jones is from his daily devotional book for today where he says in speaking of Jesus.....

"He gives us a new nature and fills us with power that will enable us to express this new and true self even as He expressed it Himself. This self-expression expresses man as a son of God, well-pleasing in the sight of his Heavenly Father, and as an heir to eternal life..."

By Anonymous, at Friday, January 26, 2007 7:26:00 AM
Jazzy,

I am not going to argue that somewhere in Mr. Lloyd-Jones' writings that you can find such a quote that says all regenerate people will be faithful.

But the quote you give will not cut it.

"He gives us a new nature"

I agree

"and fills us with power that will enable us to express this new and true self"

I agree.

Notice he did not say "and fills us with power that automatically and invariably will cause us to live according to this new and true self"

The power he refers to "enables us to express" our new nature.

When I was 16, my mom gave me her old car. This car enabled me to drive where I wanted to. But the bottom line is that, although it enabled me, unless I willed to go somewhere, and filled the car with gas, put air into the tires, and kept the automobile maintained with fluids, I would not go.

So it is with the Christian life:

we must will to go
fill the car with gas
put air into the tires
keep the fluids at the right levels

and other things as well.

Thanks for dropping by, Wayne.

Antonio

By Antonio, at Friday, January 26, 2007 1:24:00 PM
Antonio, you posted this quote on my blog back on December 15, 2006. I will respond to you now as I did then:

“Antonio, I suppose that is a matter of perspective, isn’t it? I think we would agree that MLJ means something radically different by the term than what you would ascribe to it."

You then replied, “Jonathan,__I don't know about that:__'radically different'?__What makes you think so?__He knew what the word meant! He was a smart man.__I think that you are absolutely wrong._”

My response: “Antonio, MLJ would agree that salvation is by faith alone and does not include works (antinomian), but he would say that repentance is a necessary part of salvation, which is not antinomian in your book.”

Antonio, you keep participating in this tired old game of misrepresenting the reformed tradition. Don’t you get tired of people accusing you of this? Why not just represent accurately and then deal with the arguments?

By Anonymous, at Saturday, January 27, 2007 8:56:00 AM
Hey guys. I just popped in to see if anyones mind has changed lately

:-)

Antonio you are fully persuaded that you are correct and Matthew as usual agrees with you as he has over the last year or so.

and JMOOR.

You have finally persuaded Antonio that you are correct!!!
Nope!

However as usual Jazzycat fully agrees with you as he has for months now as well.

:-)

I think I will come back to Unashamed this time next year and see if anyones mind has changed since that time.

By Bhedr, at Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:01:00 PM
Jonathan,

I am quoting a man, who quoted a man. do you agree or disagree with the quote?

Let me ask you a question...

Do you think that the way John MacArthur preaches the "gospel" that he would be charged with any form of "antinomianism"?

Hardly...

Antonio

By Antonio, at Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:27:00 PM
Hey Brian,

Hasn't your mind been changing?

Seems to me that when I first started blogging, you were very hostile toward me. When you started to understand my position greater, you began to inch nearer to my view and inch away from your past views. Then Gojira comes on the scene, you talk to him on the phone, and you inch back.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Please don't take offense. This is what I have perceived.

Antonio

By Antonio, at Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:29:00 PM
"Do you think that the way John MacArthur preaches the "gospel" that he would be charged with any form of "antinomianism"?

Hardly..."

That depends on who you ask and what theological prardigm they "stream" from. Dan Corner and Rick Miesel would accuse John MacArthur of antinomianism, heck the church I was saved in(church of God in Christ) would definately accuse MacArthur of it.

-Scribe

By Anonymous, at Saturday, January 27, 2007 2:14:00 PM
So you say Dan Corner would call John MacArthur's "gospel" presentation antinomian?

They preach the same gospel.

By Antonio, at Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:07:00 PM
I'd beg to differ-- Soteriologically, MacArthur holds to eternal security, Corner believes in the believer's conditional salvation, by way of theological paradigm, MacArthur is a mostly reformed in his theology and Corner subscribes to semi-pelegianism. Here are a few links for your consideration Antonio;
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/antinomi.htm(Eternal security antinomianism)

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/macarthu.htm("skull and bones award to MacArthur)

Even Zane Hodges had the honor of getting the "skull and bones" award http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/hodges.htm

Same gospel, hardly...

-Scribe

By Anonymous, at Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:36:00 PM
I wish I hadn't gone to this link. Seeing my mouse keep spewing out the message "Eternal Security is Lie..." is really offensive.

I am not sure if Scribe appreciates that link or not. I am a little unclear. Either way, what a mess!

By Rose~, at Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:24:00 AM
Thank-you for the link , Rose...I shall check it with post haste...

-Scribe

By Anonymous, at Sunday, January 28, 2007 11:04:00 AM
Rose,

I've been through Dan Corner's site on numerous occasions and his view of salvation is quite disturbing. I was saved in an arminianistic(by God's sovereign grace) church that held to the same tenets of the Keswick Holiness movement.I guess as a guard against a licentious "gospel", Mr. Corner gave himself over to an extreme. The 'God" of Dan Corner is far from faithful...

-Scribe

-Scribe

By Anonymous, at Sunday, January 28, 2007 11:31:00 AM
If the Mosaic Law serves as the basis of Christ's imputed righteousness, then that kind of preaching indeed is not antinomian, and is nomian.

I think MacArthur is preaching a "nomian" gospel.

By Anonymous, at Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:13:00 PM
Scribe:

Let us take both MacArthur's and Corners systems and compare them:

MacArthur: If you do not do works and are faithful to the end: You go to hell (You only had a spurious faith)

Corner: If you do not do works and are faithful to the end: You go to hell (You lose your salvation)

They are exactly the same:

Bear fruit or burn in hell

The Biblical gospel is different:

To him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly his faith is accounted as righteousness.

Make no mistake about it, Scribe:

Perseverance of the Saints is not "Eternal Security"

it is Conditional Security:

If you persevere, you are saved.

If you fail to persevere, you are damned.

Antonio

By Antonio, at Sunday, January 28, 2007 7:01:00 PM
Hey Antonio,

No I don't take offense at all. I guess it takes time to filter through a lot of the haze. For instance I didn't fully understand everything about Zane Hodges when I first met you, but have learned more since then. In one sense I have noticed that there have been shifts from many people and at one time you apologized to JMOOR and conceded some things but then sort of retracted but then you guys have isolated and alienated each other into a corner a bit and sometimes I notice this comes from friendships formed. Gojira is a good friend and I agree with him in a lot of areas but as you may have noticed I have never changed my mind on the Infant Baptism position that most Presbyterians hold too although he is not in concert with all of that as I understand most presbyterians to be. I think we all can be persuaded in things and at times I have been by you but then things like the parables and your position on the "outer darkness" thing kind of shocked me back out of it and I noticed it occured to others. Then there are other issues that seem to come out of left field as well where I haven't been able to say that I stand where you do, but I have learned from you and do not think you are wrong about everything and I believe you know the Lord, but we all have to learn and move toward truth and not away from it. There were some folks who started on this team blog that are not fully in concert with it anymore and one who left. As we learn more and more about one anothers positions we may tend to get in little fluxes but my point about you and Matt and JMOOR and Jazzycat is that I think alliances have been formed so much so now that I don't know if you guys are really listening to each other anymore. That was my point. From one who is still learning and learning as well to not be as reactive as I used to be. I would say you were reactionary towards me at the begining as well and that also in part caused me to clam up a bit.

Again, no offense taken. Love you brother. If we could all sort of develope a "not for sale" attitude while at the same time love each other enough to give one another a hug then I think we may be on the right track.

Brian

By Bhedr, at Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:03:00 PM
Also the death, burial and resurrection as well that sometimes I find underscored a bit in lieu of making an argument. That made me uncomfortable a bit and perhaps where Gojira and I hit it off. He and I do agree about a good many things but he has not been afraid of calling me out where he feels I have been hypocritical. I think it is healthy to maintain growth in light of all of these things as many of us have blindspots that we can help one another with. I hope you will consider that you may have blindspots as well. I know that you are burdened that many of us out here are lost, but I am finding that many Christians have that burden about other Christians...but we are like little lambs that need to be reminded and need to constantly learn at the feet of our Shepherd.

By Bhedr, at Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:10:00 PM
BTW, I did feel like this was a good point that you made about this quote and am glad you brought it up to stir everyone to think.

SEE?

By Bhedr, at Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:13:00 PM
Hey Brian,

thanks for your thoughtful insights. I love you too, brother, and I enjoy your comments on people's blogs.

The reason this quote came to mind was because of the Calvinist Gadfly's tripe posted on Camp on This.

Whatever can be said of Lordship Salvation and John MacArthur, in particular, that he preaches an antinomian gospel would not be one of them.

Antonio

By Antonio, at Monday, January 29, 2007 1:19:00 PM
About the Death and burial, and resurrection: someday I will make my point to you guys clear on that. I don not disparage that message. But in and of itself, it is not good news.

The good news is, in light of Christ's passion and resurrection, that Jesus guarantees eternal life to all who merely take Him at His word, believing His promise to do so.

Christs death was necessary, as was His resurrection. And this message is the usual context that I deliver Christ's guarantee of eternal life to the believer in Him for it.

Antonio

By Antonio, at Monday, January 29, 2007 1:23:00 PM
Hey Antonio! Did you read Terry's coments? I thought they were very good. Do you ever visit his site?

Thanks for taking time to listen. We are here to wash one anothers feet and encourage each other in truth and closer to our Lord.

By Bhedr, at Monday, January 29, 2007 4:35:00 PM
I know you have set your hopes in the finished work of Christ as well and that I will see you in heaven one day. I am learning that communication is so critical more and more and it is a fearful thing to deliver this news to others. I in fact bought a sub at Subway today and gave the young lady behind the counter a BBN invitation to listen card and asked her if she was saved.

"No" she quickly replied and then said, "I am waiting to get myself right with God so that I will do it right."

Her heart seemed very prepared and intent on listening to me. It was a divine appointment I am sure. There was no one else in line and I quoted to her Ephesians 2:8-9 and told her that she did not have the strength to do that and that she must receive Christ freely and place all of her sin on Jesus at the cross and be saved as a free gift and then little by little and day by day God would begin to work in her life. I quoted a couple more verses and then left her encouraging her to listen to the Bible Broadcasting Network for the good teaching(especially Dr Erwin Lutzer at 7:30 am eastern) as I left. Her eyes appeared to be red as if tears were coming to her eyes, but I cannot be sure of it. Some people have broke down and started weeping as I talked to them about the Lord so you can tell that the Holy Spirit is working. It is also good to know at times and try to feel out the situation if possible so we can try to know the right words or the right angle. Sometimes I do teach repentance if the person seems to heckle just to get their attention. Sometimes I stumble when doing this and feel that I have said the wrong thing, but today went very well.

Last week did not and I ran into a Jehovah's Witness and spent much time on the Diety of Christ. He was the one absorbed with the topic as he shamed me and told me he pitied me for worshiping a man. I finally left him by saying, "Well if you are right then I have nothing to lose since you believe we simply die and there is no resurrection except for the good 144,000 but if I am right then you have hell to pay!" We shook hands and he left smiling saying he would pray for me or something like that as he pitied me he said. It was a very convienient place to street preach as it was down town in front of a walmart as I was waiting my turn to be unloaded at a construction site. May God go with you brother as you tell a desperately lost and dying world about our Saviour. Your feet are sweet and precious.

By Bhedr, at Monday, January 29, 2007 4:48:00 PM
BTW, my point about the JW is that he was refusing to repent of his stubborn willful rejection of truth that would set him free from his sin and is chosing to believe a lie as an excuse for his sin. May the Holy Spirit work on his heart because I could have talked until I was blue in the face and we did indeed talk about 30 minutes as he fired his arsenal at me and I tried to answer every question. He simply needed to repent and believe.

By Bhedr, at Monday, January 29, 2007 4:50:00 PM
He also told me that he was saved by grace but only for this life so that he could have a prosperous life on earth, but that he would not have to face a judgment for his sins and that Jesus was really Michael the archangel and that only an angel or man could help him. Very long and confusing discussion with him. Pray for him. He is lost and needs to come to the way the truth and the life. The Jesus of the Bible.

Take care brother. Love you!!

By Bhedr, at Monday, January 29, 2007 4:56:00 PM
Antonio,

Would you give me your thoughts on some questions I asked?

http://gojiras-stomping-ground.blogspot.com/2007/01/calvinist-with-free-grace-view-of.html

By Anonymous, at Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:31:00 AM