[We are] not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Tuesday, August 01, 2006

Does Anybody Agree with this Quotation? III

by Antonio da Rosa

Often times Traditionalists are asked by those who represent their faith to hold contradictory notions in their minds at the same time. For instance:

We may cling tenaciously to the doctrine of Final Perseverance and yet at the same time we may legitimately view our own personal profession of faith with something akin to uncertainty.
Maurice Roberts, "Final Perseverance," The Banner of Truth Trust 265 (October 1985): 10

So we are to believe in the Reformed doctrine of perseverance in a general sense but doubt that we in particular are necessarily saved!

There is no security in the Traditionalist religion!

How is the Calvinist position any different than that of the Arminian?

D.A. Carson states, "Thus at their worst, the two approaches meet in strange and sad ways." "Reflections on Christian Assurance," Westminster Theological Journal 54(1992)

The two systems are exactly the same: If you do not persevere until the end in faith and good works it is off to the lake of fire!

What do you think? Do you agree with Maurice Roberts?


  • No, I don't agree with Maurice Roberts, but I agree with this quote by D.A. Carson. How odd that both systems should perversely end up at the same place!

    Yet this shouldn't surprise us, for they both begin at the same place - locating the ground of assurance in the believer rather than in the promises of God.

    By Anonymous Bud Brown, at Tuesday, August 01, 2006 7:06:00 PM  

  • I think Maurice exposes the weakness of perseverance.

    It is a fundamentally flawed teaching and one that leads to much introspection and doubt.

    Antonio, how would you gauge the success of these posts? It seems that both sides are rather entrenched in their positions and unwilling to budge.

    God bless,

    By Blogger Jim, at Tuesday, August 01, 2006 7:51:00 PM  

  • Bud, ahhh... you are so right. I always have stated it like this:

    Calvinism and Arminianism wind up in the same place, they are essentially the same!

    Calvinism: If you don't persevere in faith and good works, you only had a spurious faith; were never saved. Hell is your fate.

    Arminianism: If you don't persevere in faith and good works, you lost your salvation. Hell is your fate.

    In both systems, if you don't have works, you go to hell. Therefore, both systems condition eternal life on works. And both systems have no security whatsoever for the believer.


    The Calvinist may only have a spurious, temporary faith. He can't know he is a true believer until he perseveres until death.

    The Arminian may not persevere in faith and good works and thus lose his salvation.

    Neither has security.


    Insofar as a person hears the falsehoods of his system exposed, this is my success. Sure, men will harden themselves toward it. Yet, I have been persuaded of things that have been many times over presented to me.

    All I can do is rely upon my prayers, the Holy Spirit, and men's desire to be logical, rational beings.

    If you have any other ideas, please send them to me in an email. Bud's new website notes that all entries to it must be irenic.

    I submit that such would mostly be an impossiblility for me. I find that my passions run somewhat caustically deep.

    Too, Jim. I sense that some of my posts have had an impact on you. I would ask you, then, brother, to guage the success of my polemic endeavors.

    As most Calvinists will admit, Jim:

    Christians are not born-again as Calvinists. They are learnt to that position.

    I mean, how would a genuine, sincere, Calvinist preach his "gospel"?

    God is love, but He loves only those who He chose in eternity past to bring to glory. The rest of humanity He has created for destruction. Jesus died for these elect and the elect only. If you are elect, you will believe this message and persevere until death in this faith and good works. Other wise, you are a spurious believer, whose fate is hell.

    Calvinism has a huge interest in proselytyzing Christendom, they can't be genuine and preach what they truly believe to the unbeliever! So they must increase their ranks by congregation stealing.


    By Blogger Antonio, at Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:26:00 PM  

  • Antonio,

    I have truly enjoyed our discussions and dialogue.

    It has been encouraging to find someone else who also understands the true purpose of sanctification and the aspects of the future kingdom reign.

    Yes, you are truly impassioned in your statements and comments. This can be good, as long as we are not intentionally being spiteful simply for the sake of controversy.

    I have noticed many of the Calvinist's apply a similar level of sarcasm in their posts, with almost an air of superiority, as if they have the undiluted truth and are belaboring themselves to "enlighten" us.

    I have had years of exposure to this attitude and am growing immensely tired of it.

    I appreciate any brother who is willing to objectively look at scripture and see what it truly means, rather than simply checking his commentary to see what some dead old theologian thought.

    I say throw out all the commentaries!

    It is always the faithful evangelist who tills the ground, only to have cults and aberations come behind and take the crop for themselves. This is historically the case. I don't see it changing either as the parables do predict a slow corruption of the appearance of the kingdom.

    God bless,

    By Blogger Jim, at Wednesday, August 02, 2006 7:52:00 AM  

  • Antonio,

    Perhaps this is where our ministry purposes, which complement each other, differ.

    My mission purpose is to innoculate people from becoming infected with Calvinism. If we get to them first, they will never become Calvinists because it is logically absurd. Only those who fall prey to the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority become Calvinists.

    This is what motivates my teaching and writing ministry, and also the work on my website.

    If you can dislodge a few from their entrenchments and if I can diminish the stream of fresh recruits, perhaps the next generation will be delivered from this darkness.

    By Anonymous Bud Brown, at Thursday, August 03, 2006 6:38:00 AM  

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